Re: [tcmtf] Answers to possible questions in the BOF

["Diego R. Lopez" <[e-mail]>]

Hi,

When talking about security, we should not forget two different aspects:

1) Applying TCMTF to enhance (or provide a better support to) security network services, like IPsec or VPNs

2) Securing the application of TCMTF itself

As far as I can tell, most of the discussion so far has been on the first aspect. This could be outlined as an use case, and further discussed in a separate document if required, oriented towards "Applying TCMTF in secure environments" or the like

Regarding the second issue, I tried to make a few points some time ago:

8<---

> We can consider different security contexts for different tunnels, according to some policy agreed by both end-points at a given tunnel. The security contexts would define encryption, authentication, or both. We'd have to go into more detail to evaluate potential savings, but I have the feeling they could be worth considering.
>
> The point is that if we go for these different security contexts, we must consider how they can be established by mutual authentication of the tunnel end-points, and this opens additional issues regarding configuration and crypto material exchange, as well as the possibility of user-initiated authentication by means of protocols like OAuth.
>
> I'd keep this in the list of the "soon-to-open" issues, focusing on the three main docs we have been discussing so far.

8<---

I had the intention to elaborate them a little more, but other matters pre-empted this :-(
My take is that some reflections on this should be included in the "Security Considerations" section of the framework document, and a further document on this be considered in a further stage.

Be goode,

On 8 Jul 2013, at 09:28 , Jose Saldana wrote:

> Hi, Muthu, Dan, Jose Luis.
>
> It seems that we have identified some cases in which different security options are possible. The question here is:
>
> Can this be issued in the TCMTF main draft (TCMTF Reference Model)?
>
> Or do you think a TCMTF-security document would be interesting?
>
> Jose
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: jsalazar [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Enviado el: jueves, 04 de julio de 2013 19:36
> Para: [e-mail]
> Asunto: RE: [tcmtf] Answers to possible questions in the BOF
>
> Hi all.
> With your last question, you have just hit the bullseye. I think the classification is correct. Cases 1 and 2a are a good way to keep the compromise between security and efficency. However, case 2b gives a step beyond and the security is compromised in the interest of efficiency.
> In that case, users have to trust in tcmtf manager for managing their privacy also. Then, we will leave the tipical Public Key Infraestructure
> (PKI) security architecture and use the Identity Based Encryption (IBE) one (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5408).
> They are three different scenarios and all of them seem to be very interesting, but the last one a bit more.
> Regards:
>
> JL
>
> "I see them falling out the skies like eagles All mirrored glass and shattered egos"
>
> Simple Minds.
>
> El 2013-07-03 17:58, Jose Saldana escribió:
>> Hi, Jose Luis. Good point.
>>
>> Regarding security, we could establish this classification:
>>
>> 1- Adding security to TCM: I have a number of non-secured flows
>> traveling through a “dangerous” network segment (perhaps a tunnel
>> between appliances connecting remote offices of a company), and I want
>> not only traffic optimization but also security. In this case, I can
>> simply use IPsec on the tunnel.
>>
>>
>> 2- Using TCM for optimizing already secured communications: I have a
>> bunch of already secured flows. Which is the best way for tunneling,
>> compressing and multiplexing them?
>>
>> Two subcases:
>>
>> 2a- I can use TCM normally, but not only compress IP, TCP or UDP
>> headers, but also security headers using a header compression method.
>> Some possibilities for compressing security headers:
>>
>> - ROHCoIPsec, RFC5856 (http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5856)
>> - RFC5225 http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5225
>>
>>
>> 2b- But I can save more bandwidth if the TCM-ingress optimizer
>> (TCM-IO) is able to:
>> - rebuild the packets to their native form
>> - TCM-optimize them
>> - put them into a single security tunnel
>>
>> I have three phases (let's suppose I have 20 communications):
>>
>> Origin 1
>> Origin 2     <----20 secured flows --------> TCM-IO <------1
>> tunnel------> TCM-EO <-------- 20 secured flows----> destination 1, 2,
>> 20
>> ...
>> Origin 20
>>
>> I have an advantage: In the shared network path, I use a single tunnel
>> instead of 20 different tunnels.
>>
>> But I have some additional requirements: I need processing capacity in
>> the TCM optimizers, and the endpoints should trust them.
>>
>>
>> Is this classification correct? Any other options? Any other
>> requirements? It is time for "security experts".
>>
>> Jose
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En nombre
>> de jsalazar Enviado el: lunes, 01 de julio de 2013 20:50
>> Para: [e-mail]
>> Asunto: Re: [tcmtf] Answers to possible questions in the BOF
>>
>> Hi all:
>> Mmmmmmm. Since I see tcm-tf as a service, I can design the service
>> with added security features that the type of communication is
>> requiring. I think we have to be clear what we are expressing when we
>> are talking about secure tcm-tf: Ensuring the service tcm-tf or
>> applying the tcm-tf service for secure communications.
>> The first possibility is not a great technological sophistication and
>> the second one might consider the first one as a possible additional
>> service.
>> Therefore,
>> every time we use the term "secure tcm-tf" should think the second
>> option, for generality.
>> On the other hand, we must also keep in mind that whenever users
>> employ secure tcm-tf, they must trust the service fully and consider
>> delegating the use of their keys (including private ones) to tcm-tf.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> JL
>>
>> "I see them falling out the skies like eagles All mirrored glass and
>> shattered egos"
>>
>> Simple Minds.
>>
>> El 2013-07-01 18:55, Dan Wing escribió:
>>> On Jun 28, 2013, at 1:57 AM, [e-mail] wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Few days ago Julian talked about TCM-TF's security and now I've read
>>> in the link included by Dan, saying that the gain obtained when
>>> multiplexing Ipsec-encrypted packets is 20-to-1. We have been
>>> looking for more information about this issue and thinking about a
>>> way to reduce the needed  bandwidth in IPsec flows.
>>>
>>> The main idea is to find a way to change the authentication of the
>>> individual packets and merge all of them in a unique authentication.
>>> Thus, instead of using 20 IPsec tunnels, we would have a single
>>> tunnel including 20 flows. Is this something similar than how Cisco
>>> gets the improvement?
>>>
>>> We would not be able to change IPsec any more than we could change
>>> TCP, so I would not look at how to change IPsec authentication.
>>>
>>> However, if there are a bunch of IPsec packets sharing a common
>>> path, I could see them being successfully multiplexed into one
>>> larger packet at one tunnel endpoint and then de-multiplexed at the
>>> other tunnel endpoint.  This can provide a packet per second
>>> reduction.  I don't think there are enough bytes in an IPsec header
>>> to bother trying to do IPsec header compression (SPI and sequence number are only 64 bits).
>>>
>>> -d
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> José Luis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dan Wing <[e-mail]> ha escrito:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 26, 2013, at 3:49 AM, Jose Saldana <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Question 4: Is TCM-TF interesting for the Industry? Should the IETF
>>> standardize this?
>>>
>>> Answer:
>>>
>>> 1) TCM-TF intends to update RFC4170, which optimizes RTP VoIP  traffic.
>>> So if RFC4170 was interesting, why not updating it?
>>>
>>> 2) TCM-TF can be useful in order to save bandwidth in many cases:
>>>
>>> - Aggregation network of *network operators*: We are saving
>>> bandwidth by optimizing and putting together traffic flows. Is this
>>> interesting for a network operator? What about overprovisioning?
>>> The idea is that there are places and moments in which a number of
>>> flows based on small packets are in the same place and at the same
>>> moment. Then, TCM-TF can be applied in order to provide
>>> flexibility. We are not optimizing the overall Internet traffic, we
>>> are optimizing specific flows with very tight delay requirements,
>>> which network operators have to take care of in a special way.
>>> www.huawei.com/ilink/en/download/HW_193034
>>>
>>> - *End to end* optimization: Nowadays, many appliances are used to
>>> connect remote offices of the same company (creating a VPN). So if
>>> a tunnel exists, why not optimizing this traffic when possible? We
>>> would save bandwidth in the access network, where it can be scarce.
>>>
>>> - Wireless and satellite scenarios.
>>>
>>> "Cisco adds IP multiplexing to mobile satellite package", April
>>> 2012,
>>> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/040912-cisco-ip-multiplexing-
>> 258082.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Any other thoughts? Any other scenarios in mind? Potential
>>> beneficiaries?
>>>
>>> Some networks, today, use cRTP (RFC2508) on their access links.   This
>>> gives bandwidth savings on the access link, but consumes
>>> considerable CPU horsepower on the aggregation router (to perform  cRTP), but
>>> provides no bandwidth savings across the network core.   If, instead,
>>> the bandwidth could be saved on the access link, across  the core,
>>> and on the far-end access link -- all without the CPU  impact on the
>>> aggregation router -- it is a considerable win.
>>>
>>> -d
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jose
>>>
>>> De: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] En
>>> nombre de Jose Saldana Enviado el: lunes, 24 de junio de 2013 13:00
>>> Para: [e-mail]
>>> Asunto: [tcmtf] Answers to possible questions in the BOF
>>>
>>> I would like to start a thread about possible questions people may
>>> ask in the BOF. Obviously, we also need answers, so we should  cooperate.
>>>
>>> This is different from the "questions to ask in the BOF". This will
>>> be discussed separately.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jose
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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--
"Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"

Dr Diego R. Lopez
Telefonica I+D
http://people.tid.es/diego.lopez/

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