Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> Wed, 03 March 2021 02:06 UTC
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References: <cc3949a4-1e60-7f77-45bd-2470be67d9d5@joelhalpern.com> <28233_1613491513_602BED39_28233_126_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330315CF830@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1bf03e82-3734-885a-7047-cacf5c63d9cc@joelhalpern.com> <8211_1613493543_602BF527_8211_334_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330315CF95E@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <cde51de3-4533-9acd-a654-59a1dc9f195b@joelhalpern.com> <11878_1613494720_602BF9C0_11878_194_1_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330315CF9FC@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <MN2PR05MB6623B0D3F5EEECFB3CE3FA8BC7809@MN2PR05MB6623.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <71F75531-DE7E-419E-890D-A5AB6D5F4D8F@nokia.com> <27179_1614103167_6035427F_27179_485_2_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B9330315D83ED@OPEXCAUBMA2.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <54DAE6D4-7435-4E1A-9538-51F2ED35B132@gmail.com> <CAE4dcxnhjszy7OMD-JusSnDBg2oR7Buo4XKO6gXk1-DrQc2FsA@mail.gmail.com> <CAE4dcxmeSLLaqa2Q7VTF=EJZXiyMV6hft2pCMSASAWb+N6PmVg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGHSPWNmr3RQrSGsbsEvyGoLqtY1eqPQ=uOv=oDdQFNz3_VLiA@mail.gmail.com> <069101d70b64$3d32bf10$b7983d30$@olddog.co.uk> <81cdb36e29e64fd79bafeb578926e6a8@huawei.com> <CABNhwV2ZVT47m17KARJDjXzr232bs5srp2KdD7njmgTPw0=8BQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKr2Fb9cd6F7GGq7Pw-jPpxzwQtTE7M_DY0oQ83mmENoEHkTFw@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV3Dz86VkePniMGmF6vOvu63VEN9J-izHZ__=qn97cqzdg@mail.gmail.com> <CAKr2Fb9f9B-BUobJGV2X90tCUdAtHzoZHWth4nbqKG9cN3r1Gg@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV0q82AobMnSBYfSaCRUNKe9=yb=ZrTFaS1YGF-UOFBeWQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAKr2Fb9dXMHSJ1psYGbUvm=6J3XFfAaZ9BwNe+F4Q_moR=Ro0Q@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV3mZVbhbNc-W_LtfUkVnT5KhqZUNFXc+we_vwBEQKj8Gw@mail.gmail.com> <CAKr2Fb81Un6YeyE=4LPFhEpLFOn9wgzVphn8DcUMZc9vDcB9Fw@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV24d7QHaKceLtiJi=v=7jMiO0=n5RQEc=apeVeu8=bRqg@mail.gmail.com> <CABNhwV1bV48f1=Cq4aM8pT9qFr-acxbkTPkrkXfZURx8JeO42A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKr2Fb98qvWWHEk8ibSTujKwGC1XyyK0MQ1uAS98RDnEW3zHbA@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2021 21:05:56 -0500
Message-ID: <CABNhwV100r8qwvt6EQD72Wq2BAMBz3EWG09xSQHWMPxFeHAxyA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Shunsuke Homma <shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Dongjie (Jimmy)" <jie.dong@huawei.com>, Eric Gray <ewgray2k@gmail.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, John E Drake <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Luis M. Contreras" <contreras.ietf@gmail.com>, "Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)" <reza.rokui@nokia.com>, Young Lee <younglee.tx@gmail.com>, "adrian@olddog.co.uk" <adrian@olddog.co.uk>, "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "teas@ietf.org" <teas@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00
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Shunsuke, On Mon, Mar 1, 2021 at 10:33 AM Shunsuke Homma < shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Gyan, > > On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 11:53 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Shunsuke >> >> On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 9:30 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Shunsuke >>> >>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 11:21 PM Shunsuke Homma < >>> shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Gyan, >>>> >>>> Please see inline. >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2021 at 3:37 AM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Shunsuke >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 9:06 AM Shunsuke Homma < >>>>> shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Gyan, >>>>>> >>>>>> Please see inline. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:35 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Shunsuke >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 2:01 AM Shunsuke Homma < >>>>>>> shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, Joel and Gyan. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Yes, I agree that SFC classifier or tunnel endpoint can be a PE >>>>>>>> router. Meanwhile, I assume there are cases that CF/VNE runs on non-PE/CE >>>>>>>> router. For example, in case that SFC is performed within the provider's DC >>>>>>>> (e.g., 5G DN), the ingress GW or ToR switch will be a classifier. Then, the >>>>>>>> GW/ToR can be called CE or PE? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Certainly, in MPLS world, MPLS termination point is conventionally >>>>>>>> called PE, but I feel PE/CE may not be generally used in DC or any other >>>>>>>> field. Actually, Geneve termination point is called tunnel endpoint, and >>>>>>>> VxLAN also use VTEP (VxLAN Tunnel End Point), not CE/PE. (Sorry if my >>>>>>>> understanding is incorrect...) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gyan> Agreed no PE/CE handoff. For any of the NOV3 overlay >>>>>>> encapsulations types the decapsulation happens on the leaf before packet >>>>>>> is handed off to host endpoint. Because it’s a host endpoint which would >>>>>>> be a server and not a customers “CPE” gear CE switch or router as in the >>>>>>> MPLS world or even with broadband BNG subscribers. So that’s the big >>>>>>> difference in the Data Center framework from an operators perspective that >>>>>>> is all the operators domain. You can think of if from a cloud perspective >>>>>>> the network infrastructure is IAAS “infrastructure as a service” and server >>>>>>> infrastructure is PAAS “platform as a service”. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Shunsuke > Thank you for your elaboration. As you pointed out, >>>>>> frameworks of NSP network and Data Center are different, and it may be >>>>>> difficult to manage with the same model. Meanwhile, in network slicing, it >>>>>> is needed to provide "E2E" connectivity guaranteed specific SLA/SLO, and >>>>>> network slice will be sometimes deployed across both NSP network and Data >>>>>> Center. For example, in a smart factory scenario, robots may be connected >>>>>> to their operating server on NSP's cloud with Geneve-based network slice. >>>>>> Then, a slice endpoint will be Geneve tunnel endpoint, neither CE nor PE. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Gyan> In a DC NVO3 overlay / underlay model typical leaf/spine >>>>> CLOS folded spine architecture, the demarcation is clearly defined if you >>>>> apply the MPLS parity to DC NVO3 directly. In that framework the spine >>>>> nodes are like the P routers performing in line data plane forwarding >>>>> similar to P label switching leaf to leaf over the folded spine as well as >>>>> termination of control plane and the leafs terminating NVO3 tunnel endpoint >>>>> vtep for vxlan for example perform the encapsulation / decapsulation >>>>> similar to PE label imposition and disposition. So applying the same MPLS >>>>> parity to NVO3 the leaf would be the PE and the TOR connected switch would >>>>> then be the CE. So the same PE/CE nomenclature can still apply. >>>>> >>>>> For non NVO3 BGP only DC CLOS folded spine architecture we still have >>>>> the leaf and spine nodes and here also the leaf would be the PE and TOR >>>>> hanging off the leaf would be the CE. >>>>> >>>>> I think in any model even in GMPLS mode for example where you have an >>>>> peering adjacency such as inter-as tie that would be your NNI PE-PE >>>>> relationship. >>>>> >>>>> As far as SFC classifier that would be on the leaf switch acting as >>>>> the PE demarcation to the CE TOR switch. >>>>> >>>>> So you can really apply the PE/CE nomenclature ubiquitously to any >>>>> scenario. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Shunsuke > Thank you very much. I understood that PE/CE model can be >>>> applied in every network slice scenario from the aspect of traffic >>>> handoffs. I agree with that, and it seems reasonable. >>>> >>> >>> Gyan> Great. I think we are making progress.😀 >>> >>>> >>>> Then, my next concern is whether we should bring terms of MPLS world to >>>> overlay world. (It depends on the realization, but I assume network slices >>>> will be realized with overlay technologies in many cases.) NVO3 and other >>>> overlay technologies use "endpoint", and I feel it is more compatible to >>>> network slice scenarios. NSE can be also applied to every network slice >>>> scenario. As Reza mentioned, NSE is a logical entity of network slice layer >>>> and will be mapped to (virtual/physical) node in technology layer such as >>>> CE//PE for MPLS, VNE, VTEP, etc. >>>> >>> >>> Gyan> The concept of underlay/overlay actually historically started >>> with any framework where you have a concept of multi tenancy or multiple >>> customer framework that broadened the single tenant IP based framework to a >>> logical construct by creating a “hypervisor like” overlay/underlay model >>> now called “MPLS”. MPLS can be utilized as a single tenant model similar >>> to IP based model in an enterprise MPLS framework where the PE-CE edge is >>> native IP “no VRF” or virtualization of the edge layer using “global table” >>> single layer no overlay routing PE-RR SAFI 1 for IPv4 and SAFI 4 for IPv6 >>> BGP LU (6PE) to connect IPv6 islands over an MPLS core. “MPLS” can also be >>> user in a Service Provider mode of “multi tenancy” multi customer model >>> identical to NVO3 with a virtualization “hypervisor like” layer added with >>> now populating the label stack two layers deep with now a virtualization of >>> the PE-CE edge layer with VRF concept similar to a VM VNF on a NFV >>> framework, so now the topmost transport label is the underlay global table >>> routing and your bottom of stack a label BOS bit set is your virtualization >>> layer VPN “overlay” layer identical to NVO3 “overlay/underlay” concept. So >>> the idea of tunneling is tunnel endpoint and tunnel termination point is >>> not new and applies to any framework where you have encapsulation and >>> decapsualation occurring in MPLS it’s imposition and disposition of the >>> Label stack to forward native IP to the CE edge end in NVO3 it’s the same >>> removal of the outer envelope to forward native IP to the edge. The >>> virtualization layer in both cases stops at the PE edge when the handoff >>> occurs from PE to CE as now the CE edge sits in the global table routing. >>> This is true any overlay/underlay architecture with MPLS and NVO3 as direct >>> parity examples. We can actually think of the concept of network slice >>> framework as a pre existing condition of any overlay / underlay model as >>> logically the overlay “VPN overlay” or “NVO3 overlay” is a slice of the >>> physical with the virtualization layer terminating on what we call today a >>> “PE” and tomorrow with network slice paradigm shift with my parity added in >>> the paradigm shift we end up still calling it a “PE”. >>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> Also, I think some modification or extension of definitions of CE/PE >>>> for these usage if we use CE/PE terms instead of NSE. As Kenichi pointed, >>>> "customer" of CE actually means "consumer". PE may mean edge of IETF >>>> technology-enabled domain, not provider network, in such usage. >>>> >>> >>> Gyan> Agreed. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Anyway, I don't see any serious problems whichever is chosen, and think >>>> this is a matter of taste finally. Or we need more consideration from >>>> different aspects. >>>> >>> >>> Gyan> The major take away here is in my mind is added industry >>> confusion or layer of abstraction as it may be with new nomenclature where >>> we are really still talking about the same endpoint type. Nothing has >>> really changed, but it’s just wrapping our heads around the network slice >>> concept where in reality it has existed for decades. >>> >> >> Shunsuke > In the recent network slicing concept, I think that two > factors are added to the existing traditional network model: E2E coverage > and on-demand provisioning by automation. In many cases, IETF network is a > part of the entire network connecting end hosts, and an E2E network slice > would be realized with combining network slices deployed over different > type of networks. Also, in the future, deployment of each network slice and > combining them will be fully automated with orchestrators (for E2E and each > domain). Then, what should be prior in IETF Network Slice NBI may not be > providers' aspect but one consumer, including customers and orchestrators. > In short, terms which are general and unified independently of underlay > types may be needed. > # This is just one option, and I don't say that the PE-CE model is > inappropriate from such a perspective. > > >> Gyan> So the concept of “network slice” is half way there with the >> slide concept being a pre existing condition with the overlay VPN or NVO3 >> overlay concept. The second half of the slicing that was missing that is >> now being added is the underpinnings of VPN overlay which is already sliced >> to the underlay now extending the overlay slicing to the underlay slice of >> resources. From a cross sectional standpoint if you think of a pie the >> knife went half way through the slice but landed in the middle bottom half >> being the underlay but now when the knife goes all the way through the >> cross section now you have slice of pie which is the “network slice”. >> >>> >>>> Shunsuke > That's a very important point. What we need is a framework > for linking overlay and underlay resources. > Gyan> Understood. We have the framework draft. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn-07 Are you good then with using the historical PE / CE nomenclature? > >> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> For customers, it would be better that they can always request a >>>>>> slice with the same information/data model whatever their target is. If >>>>>> there are cases where CE/PE can't be fit, I think we should avoid using >>>>>> them as a slice endpoint. >>>>>> # If we focus on only transport (i.e., IP/MPLS based network) and >>>>>> never extend the scope to other fields, it's ok to use CE/PE. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If PE/CE are conceptual entities and can be applied to any cases, >>>>>>>> not only MPLS(SR) networks, I assume that NSE and PE/CE are the same. >>>>>>>> Whichever is fine to me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Shunsuke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 3:21 PM Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree that the PE / CE nomenclature can be used for any scenario >>>>>>>>> where their is a customer handoff “demarcation” and only in those cases can >>>>>>>>> apply the network slicing endpoint concept. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Access - wireline/wireless >>>>>>>>> Wireline >>>>>>>>> MPLS/SR core VPN overlay - typical PE-CE demark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> MPLS/SR inter-as provider handoffs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Wireless - RAN xHaul - 3GPP gateway to UE - fixed or mobile >>>>>>>>> wireless 4G/5G - UE to Gateway is the handoff point >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> OTN- >>>>>>>>> OTN GMPLS/MPLS-TP packet core - typically that is the operators >>>>>>>>> infrastructure and so no customer handoff. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Data Center- >>>>>>>>> Data Center - typically no customer handoff >>>>>>>>> Typical DC flavors - >>>>>>>>> CLOS architecture BGP only DC >>>>>>>>> NVO3 - leaf/spine - vxlan/nvgre/geneve >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cloud - IAAS infrastructure as a service so no handoff >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Content provider- no handoff >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Web or content hosting - also no handoff paid for service offering >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So in summary the only two scenarios where you have a customer >>>>>>>>> handoff is the operator access layer wireline and wireless above. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So I think the PE / CE nomenclature fits the bill even with the >>>>>>>>> network slicing paradigm shift. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kind Regards >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gyan >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 11:59 PM Shunsuke Homma < >>>>>>>>> shunsuke.homma.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm wondering if CE/PE can cover all cases. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> For example, can SFC CF/SFF (ref. RFC 7665) or Geneve tunnel >>>>>>>>>> endpoint/NVE (ref. RFC8926) put the internal of a provider network be an >>>>>>>>>> endpoint of IETF network slice? And if so, can we call them CE or PE? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Shunsuke >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 9:43 AM Gyan Mishra < >>>>>>>>>> hayabusagsm@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting discussion. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I understand their is a paradigm shift with Enhanced VPN >>>>>>>>>>> network slicing framework, however I think as John and Eric stated and I >>>>>>>>>>> agree with their proposed update that “CE” replace “Network slice endpoint” >>>>>>>>>>> and PE replace “Network Slice Realization Endpoint”. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From an industry perspective from an operators point of view, >>>>>>>>>>> I can see that maybe the Network slicing paradigm shift is being driven by >>>>>>>>>>> 5G which has its key constructs of XHaul front back and mid haul vRAN and >>>>>>>>>>> the mobile handset UE 3GPP user data plane and how much the CE is now aware >>>>>>>>>>> of the underlay. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As Adrian pointed out the CE based VPN versus PE based VPNs and >>>>>>>>>>> the trade off for operators with CE based VPNs and how much knowledge are >>>>>>>>>>> operators willing to give their customers about the underlay. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As we all know that even though 5G is the industry driver of >>>>>>>>>>> network slicing, the framework of network slicing as far as degree of >>>>>>>>>>> isolation and steering is all based on the very overlay VPN concept now >>>>>>>>>>> enhanced VPN+ to provide an improved user or SLA experience. So the >>>>>>>>>>> concept of network slicing underpinned of overlay VPN with underlay >>>>>>>>>>> resources and steering can be used for any use case with requirements of a >>>>>>>>>>> higher grade SLA and not just 5G , such as DETNET or any content provider >>>>>>>>>>> video streaming service offering or any service requiring a higher degree >>>>>>>>>>> of isolation. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Their are definitely trade off from an economics and value added >>>>>>>>>>> service and ROI perspective for CE versus PE based VPNs. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Another point noted in this thread which I think is important >>>>>>>>>>> and that is “confusion” related to changing the historical PE / CE >>>>>>>>>>> terminology. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That being said I do agree with John and Eric on their proposed >>>>>>>>>>> change. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Kind Regards >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gyan >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Feb 26, 2021 at 2:14 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) < >>>>>>>>>>> jie.dong@huawei.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed good discussion about the terms, and thanks to Adrian >>>>>>>>>>>> for the explanation and summary of the PE-based and CE-based VPNs. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In the two figures provided in [1], the realization of IETF >>>>>>>>>>>> network slice in both the service layer and the tunnel layer are the same, >>>>>>>>>>>> the only difference is the position the NSE represents. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thus I also support the proposal of using the well-known terms >>>>>>>>>>>> CE/PE to describe the endpoints of IETF network slice. This could help to >>>>>>>>>>>> reduce the possible confusions caused by using one term to represent >>>>>>>>>>>> different positions. This could also help to understand the mapping from >>>>>>>>>>>> IETF network slice requirements to its realization, which could be based on >>>>>>>>>>>> the architecture and technologies described in the enhanced VPN draft [3]. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jie >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Teas [mailto:teas-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Adrian >>>>>>>>>>>> Farrel >>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 25, 2021 6:52 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* 'Young Lee' <younglee.tx@gmail.com>; 'Luis M. Contreras' >>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras.ietf@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* 'Joel M. Halpern' <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; teas@ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>> 'Eric Gray' <ewgray2k@gmail.com>; 'John E Drake' <jdrake= >>>>>>>>>>>> 40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; 'Rokui, Reza (Nokia - >>>>>>>>>>>> CA/Ottawa)' <reza.rokui@nokia.com>; >>>>>>>>>>>> mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in >>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Good thread, and really good to see the debate on the WG list. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I’m piling in in response to Young, mainly because that’s the >>>>>>>>>>>> email I happen to have open. But also because the perspective of Young and >>>>>>>>>>>> Luis should be valuable to us in this context. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> While I think that the usage of “CE” and “PE” has a long >>>>>>>>>>>> history in packet networks, I don’t believe the concepts are firmly linked >>>>>>>>>>>> only to packet. They are pretty much what they call themselves: the PE is >>>>>>>>>>>> at the edge of the “provider” == “underlay” network, and the CE is at the >>>>>>>>>>>> edge of the “consumer” == “overlay” network. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I find that, as the discussion continues, we are still missing >>>>>>>>>>>> a really clear figure to help us talk about what we are describing. But >>>>>>>>>>>> Reza’s [1] is a much better start than anything previous. Here I see the >>>>>>>>>>>> classic distinction between a CE-based VPN and a PE-based VPN [2], but we >>>>>>>>>>>> have to ask ourselves carefully whether we **really** want the >>>>>>>>>>>> CE-based approach in our network slicing: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - What are the considerations for how much knowledge >>>>>>>>>>>> of the underlay network has to be shared to the CE? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> - What are the considerations for how an underlay >>>>>>>>>>>> distinguishes CE-originated slicing traffic? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> These are pretty much the same questions that CE-based VPNs >>>>>>>>>>>> have to answer. Of course, the concept of a “provider-managed CE” muddies >>>>>>>>>>>> these waters somewhat. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Conversely, the port-based PE-based VPN has none of these >>>>>>>>>>>> problems, but does have to agree on the “Access Connection” encoding, and >>>>>>>>>>>> that is either payload-sensitive (like in PWE3) or technology-aware (like >>>>>>>>>>>> in L3VPN). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But my opinion of all of this is coloured by thinking about >>>>>>>>>>>> enhanced VPNs (VPN+) [3] and IETF network slices as the same thing. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I also think that Luis’ point about contiguous or stitched >>>>>>>>>>>> segments is important. There are, I think, two cases to be considered: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 1. The multi-domain IETF network slice. Here the problem is >>>>>>>>>>>> very much the same as the multi-AS L3VPN. We have to consider how the >>>>>>>>>>>> “service request” is mapped from one domain to another. But it may help to >>>>>>>>>>>> recall that, for all our dreaming, end-to-end multi-AS MPLS-TE tunnels are >>>>>>>>>>>> not much of a thing: domains don’t like sharing information about or >>>>>>>>>>>> control of their network resources. Thus the “E-NNI” between slice domains >>>>>>>>>>>> may be as much of a service interface as the “UNI” between consumer and >>>>>>>>>>>> provider. >>>>>>>>>>>> 2. The 5G architecture considers stitching slices from >>>>>>>>>>>> different technology networks to provide an end-to-end slice. From a >>>>>>>>>>>> consumer’s point of view, this is exactly what happens, but it is not clear >>>>>>>>>>>> to me whether this is really what happens in a deployment. Surely there is >>>>>>>>>>>> aggregation as we go down the technology layers and into the “transport” >>>>>>>>>>>> networks. That is, there may be very, very many micro slices in the RAN, >>>>>>>>>>>> but as this moves onto the IP transport, it is likely that the slicing is >>>>>>>>>>>> aggregated. That means that the stitching of slices actually follows a >>>>>>>>>>>> hierarchical model with recursion. The interface between slice domains is >>>>>>>>>>>> the “UNI”. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Net-net, I like John’s original proposal. I hope we can take >>>>>>>>>>>> that as our base point and factor in further discussions. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Adrian >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] >>>>>>>>>>>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/teas/ibycGzi5cxJUJSvRxm9OsQdDqn8/ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [2] RFC 4026 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [3] draft-ietf-teas-enhanced-vpn >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *From:* Teas <teas-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Young Lee >>>>>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 24 February 2021 10:22 >>>>>>>>>>>> *To:* Luis M. Contreras <contreras.ietf@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc:* Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>; >>>>>>>>>>>> teas@ietf.org; Eric Gray <ewgray2k@gmail.com>; John E Drake < >>>>>>>>>>>> jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; Joel M. Halpern < >>>>>>>>>>>> jmh@joelhalpern.com>; mohamed.boucadair@orange.com >>>>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in >>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> This is an interesting discussion. I am now in the mobile side >>>>>>>>>>>> and reconginize that there are a number of scenarios that may need >>>>>>>>>>>> transport network slices (which is now called IETF network slices). For >>>>>>>>>>>> instance, possibly slices may be needed in the fronthaul, midhaul and >>>>>>>>>>>> backhaul as well as within DC networks that host the functions. Other than >>>>>>>>>>>> backhaul networks, the terms CE and PE may not be adequate because for the >>>>>>>>>>>> aforementioned transport networks except the backhaul, CE and PE >>>>>>>>>>>> terminology would not easily apply. For each of the aforementioned >>>>>>>>>>>> transport subnetworks, I think using slice endpoints makes more sense. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> In other words, I agree with Luis on this point. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My two cents, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Young >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> 2021년 2월 24일 (수) 오후 7:00, Luis M. Contreras < >>>>>>>>>>>> contreras.ietf@gmail.com>님이 작성: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks Med and Joel for the answers. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Noting what you said, and assuming that we are covering not >>>>>>>>>>>> only IP/MPLS technologies, probably we need to associate the same idea of >>>>>>>>>>>> CE and PE to technologies where those roles are not commonly associated, >>>>>>>>>>>> such as OTN, DWDM or wireless / microwave, since all of them can be >>>>>>>>>>>> potential targets of the IETF Network Slicing realization. Then, if we >>>>>>>>>>>> follow this same rationale and finally the WG decides to go in this >>>>>>>>>>>> direction, I guess we need to span the CE and PE conception also to those, >>>>>>>>>>>> maybe explaining this in the definitions draft. Am I right? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Med, when I was referring to IETF Network Slice of technology X >>>>>>>>>>>> or Y I was thinking on the realization. So my point here is that in case >>>>>>>>>>>> you have an IETF Network Slice let's say realized as IP/MPLS, and another >>>>>>>>>>>> one let's say realized on OTN or DWDM, where the IP/MPLS slice is supported >>>>>>>>>>>> by the OTN/DWDM slice, can we consider that the CE is IP/MPLS and the PE is >>>>>>>>>>>> OTN/DWDM? It sounds strange to me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Luis >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> El mié, 24 feb 2021 a las 7:16, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> escribió: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Luis, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, this is all about recursion, service decomposition >>>>>>>>>>>> and manipulating customer/provider ROLES. In all cases, there are reference >>>>>>>>>>>> points delimiting the scope of the slice from both the customer view (we >>>>>>>>>>>> call them, customer edges) and provider view (provider edges). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Nothing prevents that at the realization stage, two PEs can’t >>>>>>>>>>>> be connected. I’m thinking about the example where inter-AS VPN can be used >>>>>>>>>>>> to implement an IETF network slice. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, can you please clarify what do you mean by a “IETF >>>>>>>>>>>> Network Slice of technology X or Y” as slice is >>>>>>>>>>>> technology-agnostic? Thank you. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Med >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> *De :* Luis M. Contreras [mailto:contreras.ietf@gmail.com] >>>>>>>>>>>> *Envoyé :* mardi 23 février 2021 23:46 >>>>>>>>>>>> *À :* Eric Gray <ewgray2k@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Cc :* BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; >>>>>>>>>>>> Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa) <reza.rokui@nokia.com>; John E >>>>>>>>>>>> Drake <jdrake=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>; teas@ietf.org; >>>>>>>>>>>> Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> *Objet :* Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in >>>>>>>>>>>> draft-ietf-teas-ietf-network-slice-definition-00 >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regarding the CE / PE discussion, I have doubts if this would >>>>>>>>>>>> apply to scenarios where we could have stitching of IETF Network Slices or >>>>>>>>>>>> in scenarios where an IETF Network Slice of technology X is supported on >>>>>>>>>>>> IETF Network Slice of technology Y. While end-point can work in all the >>>>>>>>>>>> cases, I think that CE / PE don't become naturally applicable in all cases. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Respect to the discussion on IETF Network Slice Service, I >>>>>>>>>>>> think it is redundant since we are talking of consumer/customer and >>>>>>>>>>>> provider in the context of IETF Network Slice, so being "Service" >>>>>>>>>>>> redundant there. Probably adds more confusion than clarification. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Luis >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Gyan Mishra* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >>>>>>>>>>> Spring, MD >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Teas mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Teas@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/teas >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Gyan Mishra* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >>>>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >>>>>>>>> Spring, MD >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Gyan Mishra* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >>>>>>> Spring, MD >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> <http://www.verizon.com/> >>>>> >>>>> *Gyan Mishra* >>>>> >>>>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >>>>> Spring, MD >>>>> >>>>> -- >>> >>> <http://www.verizon.com/> >>> >>> *Gyan Mishra* >>> >>> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >>> >>> >>> >>> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >>> Spring, MD >>> >>> -- >> >> <http://www.verizon.com/> >> >> *Gyan Mishra* >> >> *Network Solutions A**rchitect * >> >> >> >> *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike >> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/13101+Columbia+Pike?entry=gmail&source=g> *Silver >> Spring, MD >> >> -- <http://www.verizon.com/> *Gyan Mishra* *Network Solutions A**rchitect * *M 301 502-134713101 Columbia Pike *Silver Spring, MD
- [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-teas-… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel Halpern Direct
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Uma Chunduri
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… tom petch
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Daniele Ceccarelli
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Kiran Makhijani
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Rokui, Reza (Nokia - CA/Ottawa)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Eric Gray
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Luis M. Contreras
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Young Lee
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Dongjie (Jimmy)
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Ogaki, Kenichi
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Shunsuke Homma
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Gyan Mishra
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Greg Mirsky
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… LUIS MIGUEL CONTRERAS MURILLO
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Tarek Saad
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… John E Drake
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… Krzysztof Szarkowicz
- Re: [Teas] network Slice Endpoint in draft-ietf-t… mohamed.boucadair