Re: [TLS] DSA should die
Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com> Thu, 02 April 2015 05:49 UTC
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Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2015 00:49:14 -0500
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From: Nico Williams <nico@cryptonector.com>
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] DSA should die
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On Thursday, April 2, 2015, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 7:17 PM, Martin Rex <mrex@sap.com <javascript:;>> > wrote: > > Dave Garrett wrote: > >> On Wednesday, April 01, 2015 08:40:40 pm Stephen Farrell wrote: > >>> <no-hats-except-the-330+-ciphersuites-is-crap-hat> > >>> > >>> Here's a suggestion: why pick 'em off one by one? How about > >>> creating a new registry that only includes stuff we think is > >>> really good for TLS1.3? > >> > >> I don't think a whole new registry is a good idea. The ClientHello > >> has to stay the same for backwards compatibility, and cipher suites > >> will need to be listed for TLS 1.2 compatibility at least. > >> Creating a whole new system is only good if you can completely > >> ignore the old one. > >> > >> There's plenty of space in the current registry if you want to > >> start over. Just say 0xD000 and up is for TLS2 suites, and all > >> below are TLS1. (at this point it's definitely time for 2.0) > >> Define TLS2 codepoints for valid combinations for TLS2 and the TLS1 > >> would be invalid to negotiate for TLS2 but in there for TLS1. > > > > I agree that ClientHello needs to remain backwards-compatible. > > > > But how about using the Cipher Suites registry in a more creative > fashion. > > > > For TLSv1.3, we could do the negotiation through he cipher suites list > > more like this: > > > > 0x10,0xXX specifies a key exchange algorithm (XX) 256 codepoints > > 0x12,0xYY specifies an authentication algorithm (YY) 256 codepoints > > 0x14,0xZZ specifies a symmetric encryption scheme (ZZ) 256 > codepoints > > 0x16,0xQQ specifies a mac algorithm (QQ) 256 codepoints > > 0x18,0xPP specifies a PRF algorithm (PP) 256 codepoints > > > > (with a little room in between if we ever exceed the 256 codepoints) > > I don't understand why we want a different mechanism for TLS 1.3 and > TLS 1.2 ciphersuite negotiation. Even worse, I don't see how something > like SRP fits cleanly into the scheme above. Yes, SRP is little-used, > but people seem to think it's important. > > What's wrong with the existing mechanism, if we remove things we don't > want? For one: some combinations that are useful get lost in the shuffle because there are so many ciphersuites. It has happened before and it will happen again. A la carte combination is a useful compression function for: us, operators, and the network. It's a compression function that leaves us with the essential information that we really need. There are two separate proposals here: a la carte registration, and a la carte negotiation on the wire. The latter is only an on-the-wire compression function -- perhaps it's too disruptive, though now is the only time it could happen. There is no excuse for not doing the former. Nico --
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- [TLS] DSA should die Hanno Böck
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die David Benjamin
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Checkoway
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Tom Ritter
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Rex
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die CodesInChaos
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Nico Williams
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Joseph Salowey
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [TLS] DSA should die Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Michael StJohns
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Martin Thomson
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Tony Arcieri
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Sniffen
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Aaron Zauner
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Andrei Popov
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Dmitry Belyavsky
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Geoffrey Keating
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Brian Smith
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Daniel Kahn Gillmor
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Dave Garrett
- Re: [TLS] Negotiate only symmetric cipher via cip… Ilari Liusvaara
- Re: [TLS] Ala Carte Cipher suites - was: DSA shou… Yoav Nir