Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> Fri, 04 December 2020 05:32 UTC
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References: <160496076356.8063.5138064792555453422@ietfa.amsl.com> <49d045a3-db46-3250-9587-c4680ba386ed@network-heretics.com> <b5314e17-645a-22ea-3ce9-78f208630ae1@cs.tcd.ie> <1606782600388.62069@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <0b72b2aa-73b6-1916-87be-d83e9d0ebd09@cs.tcd.ie> <1606814941532.76373@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <36C74BF4-FF8A-4E79-B4C8-8A03BEE94FCE@cisco.com> <SN6PR02MB4512D55EC7F4EB00F5338631C3F40@SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <1606905858825.10547@cs.auckland.ac.nz> <EEFAB41B-1307-4596-8A2E-11BF8C1A2330@cisco.com> <BYAPR14MB31763782200348F502A70DA4D7F30@BYAPR14MB3176.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <SN6PR02MB4512B95842251AE4C04B199CC3F30@SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <BYAPR14MB31765FD24F4DFD90F81AEE2BD7F30@BYAPR14MB3176.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <SN6PR02MB4512CBA9E4BF6AAC778BC674C3F30@SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR14MB31789349B737961728B7691ED7F30@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com> <CACsn0ckvoqZ5-JPRkOXp2Mw2zeTOdyCYLvX1NV1waJ-yidTwMQ@mail.gmail.com> <SN6PR02MB45129E647485BA5794D5CF4EC3F20@SN6PR02MB4512.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <MWHPR02MB2464CD5D5B7568E9EAC58B26D6F20@MWHPR02MB2464.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR14MB3178EC0521427BF7C3523CACD7F10@DM6PR14MB3178.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
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From: Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 21:32:27 -0800
Message-ID: <CAChr6SzvQK+exfgYEwfVNknMjr-Y-UJ4A7k0DkOkL9wmLQ84aQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Ackermann, Michael" <MAckermann@bcbsm.com>
Cc: "BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A" <db3546@att.com>, Eliot Lear <lear=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Peter Gutmann <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org>, "last-call@ietf.org" <last-call@ietf.org>, "tls-chairs@ietf.org" <tls-chairs@ietf.org>, "tls@ietf.org" <tls@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice
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Hi, What is the definition of “enterprise”? Thanks, Rob On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 7:48 PM Ackermann, Michael <MAckermann@bcbsm.com> wrote: > Deborah > > Thanks so much for your informative and positive message. > > I have not followed the OPs area too much, but will make an effort to do > so now. Any specific drafts you might suggest, I will review. In > particular, I am interested in what specific IPv6 document from the OPs > area you refer too? > > > > I took a look at the ISOC IPv6 doc you listed. Interesting but it > appears to be quite old. Do you feel it is still relevant? Enterprises > need a lot of info on IPv6 and I want to point them in the most effective > directions. > > By increasing visibility, do you mean ways to get Enterprises more > involved or aware of IETF? I can sadly say none that have yet been > effective, but I do intend to keep trying. Perhaps you have ideas? > > > > And finally, I checked out your Pragmatic Link. Still laughing, even > though it unfortunately seems to have very little relevance to my world 😊 > > > > Once again I really appreciate your constructive comments and > information. > > > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A <db3546@att.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 5:10 PM > To: STARK, BARBARA H <bs7652@att.com>; 'Watson Ladd' < > watsonbladd@gmail.com>; Ackermann, Michael <MAckermann@bcbsm.com> > Cc: 'Peter Gutmann' <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>; 'Eliot Lear' <lear= > 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; 'last-call@ietf.org' <last-call@ietf.org>; ' > tls-chairs@ietf.org' <tls-chairs@ietf.org>; ' > draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org' < > draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org>; 'tls@ietf.org' < > tls@ietf.org> > Subject: RE: [Last-Call] [TLS] Last Call: > <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and > TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice > > > > [External email] > > > > > > As Barbara builds her confidence for the IETF list and while we have > Mike's attention- > > > > Mike, you commented "More, it is a lack of understanding of how things > work within Enterprise Networks and the lack of Enterprise engagement in > Standards Development processes. And finally, this may not be a gap that > the IETF should care about or address, but someone should, IMHO." > > > > I wanted to +1 on to Barbara's message - many of us will say - "we do > care". As IETF is "huge" (for many operators/users that is the biggest > bottleneck on participating), not sure if you follow the ops area (I'm a > routing AD, but ops always has my attention😊), they have several > documents on enterprises. Currently a document on the impact of TLS1.3 on > operational network security practices. They also have an IPv6 one. I think > in all the Areas (I know best the routing area), we encourage operators and > users to participate. If you have suggestions - we are interested. > > > > How to increase visibility? Do you have suggestions? Liaisons? ISOC? When > RFC7381 (Enterprise IPv6) was done, it was an ISOC blog: > > > https://www.internetsociety.org/blog/2014/10/new-rfc-7381-enterprise-ipv6-deployment-guidelines/ > > > > Possibly this draft should be a blog? Suggestions? > > > > Thanks again for the interesting thread- Deborah for some humor - I'm > still stumbling on the draft's requirement "Pragmatically, clients MUST NOT > send". I'm not sure operationally how to ensure pragmatic client behavior - > maybe a "pragmatic client" profile😊 I'll save that question for my > ballot comment. And of course a google of pragmatic is very entertaining: > > > https://www.google.com/search?q=pragmatic&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=UnkLahjDGGZYtM%252C2VmBAP_98FtW_M%252C%252Fm%252F0c6h9&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kQHPVOk9B-3gfzcXUP1bBCiuOQ5TQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjxqN-W1rLtAhXKhK0KHWuFBGYQ_B16BAgrEAE#imgrc=WzKrFQWEFvjiWM > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: last-call <last-call-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of STARK, BARBARA H > > Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 12:03 PM > > To: 'Watson Ladd' <watsonbladd@gmail.com>; 'Ackermann, Michael' < > MAckermann@bcbsm.com> > > Cc: 'Peter Gutmann' <pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz>; 'Eliot Lear' < > lear=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; 'last-call@ietf.org' <last-call@ietf.org>; > 'tls-chairs@ietf.org' <tls-chairs@ietf.org>; ' > draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org' < > draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate@ietf.org>; 'tls@ietf.org' < > tls@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [Last-Call] [TLS] Last Call: > <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-deprecate-09.txt> (Deprecating TLSv1.0 and > TLSv1.1) to Best Current Practice > > > > Ow! Mike is my friend. Don't go dissing my friend! > > > > I think the problem in communication we've just experienced is because > Mike strayed away from Last Call discussion on a specific document, to > asking/discussing a more general question of how IETF can better > communicate with enterprises and perhaps even engage with enterprises to > make it easier to operationalize protocols inside enterprise networks. I > didn't see Mike suggesting any changes to the draft in Last Call, relevant > to this question. ? > > > > I'd like to suggest that maybe we could discuss this a little more on the > ietf list? But not here. > > I'll see what happens if I start a thread over there (ietf@ietf.org) ... > > Barbara > > > > [Let me drum up my courage first. Thinking about posting to that list is > much more stressful to me than, for example, thinking about bungie jumping > off the Macau Tower -- an experience I highly recommend.] > > > > > > Barbara, > > > > Thanks. > > > > And I think I was aware of all you state below regarding TLS, and > > > > apologize > > > for any related confusion regarding IPv6, even though, for the > > > purposes of my comment, they are similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't disagree with anything you say on the TLS subject, which is > > > essentially that prior versions of TLS may be considered insecure, > > > etc. and should be deprecated..... > > > > > > Shouldn't we publish a document saying that? It seems this would > > > represent consensus, even your view of the issue. > > > > > > > > > > > My associated point is that Enterprises are generally not aware of > > > > this and > > > that it is not currently on our Planning or Budget Radars. > > > > > > > > > TLS 1.2 has been around for how many years? All versions of OpenSSL > > > without support have been EOL for some time. How many other CVE remain > > > to be found in them? FIPS, PCI etc are all very clear that old TLS is > > > going away. Browsers have supported TLS 1.2 for years. So has Windows. > > > This depreciation should be easy given the extent of support for TLS > > > 1.2. > > > > > > I bet that most services you run are already using TLS 1.2 or even 1.3 > > > because the client and server have been updated. > > > > > > > Further, this means we are potentially years from effectively and > > > operationally addressing such issues. > > > > > > Let's be about it. > > > > > > > And we must do so in conjunction with Partners, Clouds, Clients > > > > and > > > others. > > > > And my general, overall point is that the answer to addressing the > > > > above is > > > to find way(s) of making Enterprises aware and possibly assisting with > > > methods of addressing. I think I also said this problem is not > unique to TLS > > > or IPv6. More, it is a lack of understanding of how things work > within > > > Enterprise Networks and the lack of Enterprise engagement in Standards > > > Development processes. > > > > And finally, this may not be a gap that the IETF should care about > > > > or > > > address, but someone should, IMHO. > > > > > > Your argument against the current text seems to be the following: we > > > have a problem. It is inconvenient for me that you will ask me to deal > > > with the problem. Therefore I would like the problem to not be > > > acknowledged. > > > > > > Perhaps I am being too uncharitable. But I fail to see how softening > > > the language eases depreciation, or what the consequence you fear > > > happening are. You're free to continue ignoring the RFC series. But > > > reality does not go away if it is ignored. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > Watson Ladd > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Mike > > -- > > last-call mailing list > > last-call@ietf.org > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call__;!!BhdT!1mNyW_HOYqxvO6jkrkE01zLoel9zrEb9Om34gLPLPqvikiDKKm4gJz3zSSrsDXk$ > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call__;!!BhdT!1mNyW_HOYqxvO6jkrkE01zLoel9zrEb9Om34gLPLPqvikiDKKm4gJz3zSSrsDXk$> > > The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and > is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this > communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are > hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of > this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic > mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original > message without making any copies. > > Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are > nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and Blue > Shield Association. > -- > last-call mailing list > last-call@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/last-call >
- [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-depr… The IESG
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Sean Turner
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Lamb
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Martin Duke
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Viktor Dukhovni
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ben Smyth
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Olle E. Johansson
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Keith Moore
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Salz, Rich
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Bill Frantz
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Joe Abley
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Eliot Lear
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… BRUNGARD, DEBORAH A
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Andrew Campling
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ackermann, Michael
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Ted Lemon
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Rob Sayre
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Christian de Larrinaga
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Kathleen Moriarty
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Results of Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldve… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Gary Gapinski
- Re: [TLS] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-oldversions-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [TLS] [Last-Call] Last Call: <draft-ietf-tls-… tom petch