Re: [Tools-discuss] .txt? [I-D Action: draft-xxx.txt]

Julian Reschke <> Tue, 29 June 2021 18:28 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB4903A3D0D for <>; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.237
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.237 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.338, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H_0Kks4BoDy7 for <>; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:28:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ( []) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD3DB3A3D09 for <>; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 11:27:59 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple;; s=badeba3b8450; t=1624991276; bh=9kMxl3PuyCxnjabczxm4nxOnU8sNqf5Bp3UyCvip5qQ=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To; b=iztAdHvY3L9Uk5K13guMXmBdbY9ETzHl3/Zdnrqe/exFrLCLuefMTMqDJCg4GQVYS rAsIZ+YTpuNxBBH/y35PAboc1C1Z82gqsBDOKbaZDb+c9JKZi+z9NxLlAtMvbUT/7a qF0SSYM36zrXhiRaYCh18FuVIIe9ZrrStVlTZ0GQ=
X-UI-Sender-Class: 01bb95c1-4bf8-414a-932a-4f6e2808ef9c
Received: from [] ([]) by (mrgmx104 []) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MZCfJ-1lkjog3kif-00V5xV for <>; Tue, 29 Jun 2021 20:27:55 +0200
References: <20210627013258.1D30F188447C@ary.qy> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: Julian Reschke <>
Message-ID: <>
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 20:27:53 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:/Qam4HQo9cS4p6B4R3Q+L+Bc71LDjFjEz9IC0A1qgHpaYXp56Oc NN5U2h6/otpqGEh6oWD2w6488YSKDH4lgZHLpmr7imrsAO+7yx+etyCGBQPx6S7gbNTGjJ2 GjUvrLOpHW+Q8IxS0O9yjePsMKjGvLDO5d0VXlNeb1Qb4bw3zheHhDRyyQam0tMrfhhsOL2 2m3ZW7m2jCrUZG4++QGGA==
X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:sbkPFNKYkfE=:F431CsVqFRXcM6R6duv7C5 k9rtGdnXIZt/Xb5jDxTG51idwK5fBBfVAzbbo9+YrVL5JdSc4J2znwh9Pa2jbT01K+Na6pAiE rDIXtvq8EpLK0deadRCm6msdDHq8l20sX5c3h6G+Rr1SkTkzQs5EnzKOIaVmOZQENpu4jDjM0 U5RZLsQTPvNv7EvScL1VuFjyDuUSLJTQARdMQjXWQMc0HtIqesaluXYNc7inPZmKOidcYRjdL rUNxNs5c8enNbw9dcEAy3G37u67IQrCAxJmjAanPKBeY7KjBjuINgmiRPS+pCY8TEqoQPLfu5 Em9+8ndzPYoTKkoU90JcROIe0YE2+732dYFyNElgW7V079hxUU18WlQhUp85IheH8ESPmTV5D nsli/+5aSCXGiD1eyL27mqAr/HgV7R2Nr9CcsstQWCN/HS34+Ftf0AgMdwsHklKIFIEfAUizj vc5TMaKTt3EYsIyLUw9cTkwnlFoAhyOeiirW1EAroVJgLrBdc4+64GKkFs7N+Z376kBdqPlMs 7JOKh2WbLPvbr6p8nT5jd0BH6SenipsZ+9K1Vqfuws042gUkzREBJcqasyP2/5KprMR0PSkwv 2pt0ArqbcBH1grto3Rin3gWQ3FX0ghSZiiTlLC0Fvz1b3x1Of38NjqIP+fq88dioo6hDD5KhW fpJ3Wu+s/C6kCwbxZcaq6sugiTJ1oC0k2okdXzKUc5xPFBF+fyx+G4q4DEyv48DBR9FaijLXg S7L9bktMJ+xNyqvfk5WTwBGqk8aFWpSSU7vlxaNSWusc22NGqpyhmUmUUDqg191zPvsDHELtk 2KaWvw7OWyjD48g/gO2HM6STiz8BZmPHvYWWZH/Zhx7WtJLdlQ5UF+ueqirQjK02u3ITGmWEZ biaM9kPH0nNJm1R3I5TgmhhFVYWac9SIIV1qetItiHjK4yWA+Fc4kjvJn0t6DT7L6aF0AXNMY pJTCs5zWW1m8eErGl1WMOAXV69ejAsPx0MhTLfXO9FQfn5/5KkTaH6Qsw7sh2tG/4T8IE/6rn 62R7lgyqham+SrXEeNtROAchxgKtMppJknNTWWkgbyU2wK1DxNrZDjBNjSLz2zqpHVOdTZBjh QYfDYFxhSjJeiVDpZgMJqVy3MUGgu2b+6dlkx1riOy4rP+Z6uOUrhIynQ==
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] .txt? [I-D Action: draft-xxx.txt]
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Tools Discussion <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2021 18:28:05 -0000

Am 29.06.2021 um 18:05 schrieb Carsten Bormann:
>>> As a format for authoring, making the input vastly more complicated in the name of some lofty goal (here: standards conformance) is exactly the leading symptom of the v3 development process.  Offering a bespoke, efficient(*) way of keyboarding IETF document references is exactly the right way to handle this, at least for people still authoring in XML.
>> It is not "vastly more complicated". It's a different syntax (with the
>> benefit of it not being PI-based which is yet another XML complication
>> for most authors). (*)
> Yes.  Not using PIs means that this feature now comes under the strict eyes of the chaperone, the RNG validation.
> So we all have to fix up the RFCXML RNC to make this feature available in various environments.

Concrete example?

If this really is a problem in practice, we can of course publish a
schema that takes this into account (a pre-include schema).

FWIW, with the old style PIs, documents by definition never were valid
because of dangling anchors.

> This is not progress.
> Also, the fact that there now need to be full URIs instead of more reasonable document identifiers is confusing people.
> (Not that the old ones were particularly good, but they should have been simplified, not pessimized.)
> Yes, PIs are unclean in some universe.  They are also useful for adding features where being clean gets in the way.

These are orthogonal issues. As I said above, a v2 document using PIs
for includes by definition can not be valid, so I'm not sure how the
switch to x:include makes things worse. There's even a tiny chance of
things being better if the validator applies x:include before validation
(which it should).

Yes, we could have added an inclusion mechanism which is not generic,
and special-cases reference inclusion. We still can do that if people
feel that's important.

>> IFIUC, you miss the feature of not having to specify the complete URL of
>> the reference? (Or is there something else I'm not aware of?).
> Typing full URLs is not a good use of author time.

You don't type them - you paste them.

>> (*) And, BTW the *other* way to include stuff as explained in
>> <>
>> continues to work, as it's just a basic XML feature.
> Which is, of course the one I used during the first 10 years of using RFCXML; I wasn’t even aware about the PI form before I moved away from keyboarding XML.
> But others were (and some still use XML), and I’m trying to be their advocate here.

Can we hear from them, please?

Best regards, Julian