Re: [GNAP] Terminology

[Dave Tonge <[e-mail]>]

Hi all

I agree that "client" can be confusing. I would be in support of
alternative terminology.
We can always have some wording that explains that an "Orchestrator" in
GNAP plays a similar role to "Client" in OAuth.

Dave

On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 07:52, Fabien Imbault <[e-mail]>
wrote:

> Hi Francis,
>
> I like your proposal, seems much more intuitive.
>
> Fabien
>
> Le mar. 11 août 2020 à 04:17, Francis Pouatcha <[e-mail]> a écrit :
>
>> Hello Denis, Justin, Dick, Fabien,
>>
>> In this post (
>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/txauth/IaSLC_72_KimjOBJqdmQY-JOGNw/)
>> i suggested we use the word "Orchestrator" to designate the piece of
>> software that orchestrate interaction between "Requestor" (a.k.a. User), AS
>> and RS to obtain the protected resource.
>>
>> We are turning around the same topic. As soon as we go beyond the
>> original oAuth protocol, the word 'Client' becomes confusing.
>>
>> In the same response, I suggest we talk about "roles" and not "entities".
>>
>> Best regards.
>> /Francis
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 6:36 PM Dick Hardt <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>> I still think that client was the right name in OAuth 2, as the client
>>> wanted to do a client-server interaction, so the client used OAuth 2 to get
>>> an access token to interact with the "server".
>>>
>>> I do agree that it is not the best term in GNAP. Primarily because GNAP
>>> is a combination of the client from OAuth 2, and the relying party from
>>> OIDC.
>>>
>>> /Dick
>>> ᐧ
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 12:50 PM Justin Richer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Aug 6, 2020, at 12:53 PM, Dick Hardt <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The term client in OAuth came from the computer science definition of
>>>> client-server interaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This, I would argue, is exactly why it’s a bad label for something
>>>> that’s distinctly more specific in this context, and I would love to see
>>>> GNAP adopt a more specific label for the role that we traditionally called
>>>> “client” in OAuth.
>>>>
>>>>  — Justin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The client is getting an access token so it can call a server,
>>>> specifically, a resource server (to differentiate it from the authorization
>>>> server).
>>>>
>>>> The confusion in my experience usually stems from people working with
>>>> software that is acting in multiple roles. IE, the software that is acting
>>>> as a client in once context, is also acting as an RS in other contexts, or
>>>> even acting as an AS. The other confusion is that people view clients as
>>>> being the software the user is using -- although it may not be acting as a
>>>> client in the oauth context.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ᐧ
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 4:49 AM Fabien Imbault <[e-mail]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, client has always been a strange word in the context of OAuth,
>>>>> as it has a meaning well defined both in everyday life (this client is a
>>>>> good customer) and in computer science (client-server interaction). Thus I
>>>>> always have to make the mental translation to the OAuth world before any
>>>>> discussion... And any teaching experience shows that it does make the
>>>>> concepts hard to grasp for a majority of (clever) people.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the RO, previous discussions suggested Resource
>>>>> Controller (RC) also, which may be a bit more specific than manager.
>>>>>
>>>>> Fabien
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 1:00 PM Denis <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Justin and Dick,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Was:  "Revisiting the photo sharing example (a driving use case for
>>>>>> the creation of OAuth)"]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let us attempt to define new terms:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *initiating application (IA)*: application by means of which a user
>>>>>> initiates interactions with RS(s) and AS(s)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the same way, we should get rid of the term Resource Owner (RO),
>>>>>> which is currently defined as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Resource Owner (RO): entity capable of granting access to a protected
>>>>>> resource
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I propose to replace it with Resource Manager (RM):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Resource Manager (RM)* : application or user that manages an access
>>>>>> decision function of a Resource Server
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with Justin. Redefining well used terms will lead to
>>>>>> significant confusion. If we have a different role than what we have had
>>>>>> in the past, then that role should have a name not being used already in
>>>>>> OAuth or OIDC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given what we have learned, and my own experience explaining what a
>>>>>> Client is, and is not, improving the definition for Client could prove
>>>>>> useful. I am not suggesting the term be redefined, but clarified.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, clarifying that a Client is a role an entity plays in
>>>>>> the protocol, and that the same entity may play other roles at other times,
>>>>>> or some other language to help differentiate between "role" and "entity".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> /Dick
>>>>>> ᐧ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Aug 5, 2020 at 8:20 AM Justin Richer <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m in favor of coming up with a new term that’s a better fit, but
>>>>>>> I’m not really in favor of taking an existing term and applying a
>>>>>>> completely new definition to it. In other words, I would sooner stop using
>>>>>>> “client” and come up with a new, more specific and accurate term for the
>>>>>>> role than to define “client” as meaning something completely different. We
>>>>>>> did this in going from OAuth 1 to OAuth 2 already, moving from the
>>>>>>> even-more-confusing “consumer” to “client”, but OAuth 2 doesn’t use the
>>>>>>> term “consumer” at all, nor does it use “server” on its own but instead
>>>>>>> always qualifies it with “Authorization Server” and “Resource Server”.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> GNAP can do something similar, in my opinion. But what we can’t do
>>>>>>> is ignore the fact that GNAP is going to be coming up in a world that is
>>>>>>> already permeated  by OAuth 2 and its terminology. We don’t have a blank
>>>>>>> slate to work with, but neither are we bound to use the same terms and
>>>>>>> constructs as before. It’s going to be a delicate balance!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  — Justin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 4, 2020, at 3:32 PM, Warren Parad <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think that is fundamentally part of the question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We are clear that we are producing a protocol that is
>>>>>>>> conceptually (if not more strongly) related to OAuth 2.0, and
>>>>>>>> reusing terms
>>>>>>>> from OAuth 2.0 but with different definitions may lead to
>>>>>>>> unnecessary
>>>>>>>> confusion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If we say that this document assumes OAuth2.0 terminology, then we
>>>>>>> should not change the meanings of any definition. If we are saying this
>>>>>>> supersedes or replaces what OAuth 2.0 creates, then we should pick the best
>>>>>>> word for the job and ignore conflicting meanings from OAuth 2.0. I have a
>>>>>>> lot of first hand experience of industries "ruining words", and attempting
>>>>>>> to side-step the problem rather than redefining the word just confuses
>>>>>>> everyone as everyone forgets the original meaning as new documents come
>>>>>>> out, but the confusion with the use of a non-obvious word continues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Food for thought.
>>>>>>> - Warren
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Warren Parad
>>>>>>> Founder, CTO
>>>>>>> Secure your user data and complete your authorization architecture.
>>>>>>> Implement Authress <https://bit.ly/37SSO1p>.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:53 PM Benjamin Kaduk <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Denis,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 11:31:34AM +0200, Denis wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Hi Justin,
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Since you replied in parallel, I will make a response similar to
>>>>>>>> the one
>>>>>>>> > I sent to Dick.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > > Hi Denis,
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > I think there’s still a problem with the terminology in use
>>>>>>>> here. What
>>>>>>>> > > you describe as RS2, which might in fact be an RS unto itself,
>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> > > “Client” in OAuth parlance because it is /a client of RS1/.
>>>>>>>> What you
>>>>>>>> > > call a “client” has no analogue in the OAuth world, but it is
>>>>>>>> not at
>>>>>>>> > > all the same as an OAuth client. I appreciate your mapping of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> > > entities below, but it makes it difficult to hold a discussion
>>>>>>>> if we
>>>>>>>> > > aren’t using the same terms.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > The good news is that this isn’t OAuth, and as a new WG we can
>>>>>>>> define
>>>>>>>> > > our own terms. The bad news is that this is really hard to do.
>>>>>>>> > >
>>>>>>>> > > In GNAP, we shouldn’t just re-use existing terms with new
>>>>>>>> definitions,
>>>>>>>> > > but we’ve got a chance to be more precise with how we define
>>>>>>>> things.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > In the ISO context, each document must define its own
>>>>>>>> terminology. The
>>>>>>>> > boiler plate for RFCs does not mandate a terminology or
>>>>>>>> definitions section
>>>>>>>> > but does not prevent it either. The vocabulary is limited and as
>>>>>>>> long as
>>>>>>>> > we clearly define what our terms are meaning, we can re-use a
>>>>>>>> term already
>>>>>>>> > used in another RFC. This is also the ISO approach.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just because we can do something does not necessarily mean that it
>>>>>>>> is a
>>>>>>>> good idea to do so.  We are clear that we are producing a protocol
>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>> conceptually (if not more strongly) related to OAuth 2.0, and
>>>>>>>> reusing terms
>>>>>>>> from OAuth 2.0 but with different definitions may lead to
>>>>>>>> unnecessary
>>>>>>>> confusion.  If I understand correctly, a similar reasoning prompted
>>>>>>>> Dick to
>>>>>>>> use the term "GS" in XAuth, picking a name that was not already
>>>>>>>> used in
>>>>>>>> OAuth 2.0.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Ben
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Francis Pouatcha
>> Co-Founder and Technical Lead
>> adorsys GmbH & Co. KG
>> https://adorsys-platform.de/solutions/
>>
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