Re: [rfc-i] Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?

[Toerless Eckert <[e-mail]>]

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020 at 12:32:10AM +0000, Ronald Tse wrote:
> My two cents: why don???t we just run a poll to see what the ???consensus??? is?
> 
> To me, standardizing page numbers is the wrong direction ??? one of the features of XML RFC is to allow rendering content into different formats. Having page numbers for the ASCII version is fine (it???s only being done by xml2rfc anyway), but requiring these numbers inside the XML is putting the cart before the horse.

Btw: i very much like to have unpaginated document versions, even as primary
reference. I just think it would be easy and useful to have datatracker/tools
provide both. Of course the page numbers wouldn't go into the XML!

Its just another case of "there is no one single right answer" (at least IMHO).

Cheers
    Toerless

> Ron
> 
> _____________________________________
> 
> Ronald Tse
> Ribose Inc.
> 
> On Oct 27, 2020, at 7:56 AM, John C Klensin <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> --On Tuesday, October 27, 2020 10:37 +1300 Brian E Carpenter
> <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> The argument that page numbers are harmful for *any*
> *purpose* *whatever* is not reasonable. To offer one
> glaringly obvious counterexample, people (I, for one)
> sometimes print RFCs for the purpose of reading them.
> Sometimes we want to make use of some kind of facility for
> indexing from a list of headings to facilitate direct access
> to the right section of the pile of printout. A table of
> contents, in short. This is literally what tables of contents
> were invented for. They remain useful for this purpose???
> unless some bright spark chooses to remove the page numbers
> from them, because they forgot what tables of contents are
> FOR.
> 
> Well yes... but iirc the input to the new format discussion
> was that most people read RFCs and drafts on-screen and mostly
> with the htmlized versions. So the needs of the occasional
> eccentrics who print them for off-line reading were set aside.
> (I can say that because I am such an eccentric.)
> 
> But, first of all, if the only need is to print (eccentric or
> not) for off-line reading were the only issue, then that is an
> argument in favor of PDF and perhaps abolishing the text form,
> not crippling it, unless one happens to like the fixed-pitch
> font (definitely eccentric).   The people whose needs were set
> aside were those of us who routinely use text editors (of the
> emacs or vi species and their clones), and personal RFC-specific
> macros in those editors, to work with RFCs, many of whom have
> been working that way for a long time (a few since before there
> was an IETF).
> 
> As to "set aside", there were at least some IETF participants
> with those needs (or, if you prefer, habits), along with those
> who argued for keeping the xml2rfc v3 specification rather
> closer to generic markup (reducing rather than increasing the
> amount of format markup) and inclusion of markup that would make
> it straightforward to specify references to book chapters and
> journal articles in relatively standard form. It was made clear
> to at least a subset of that group that they were (to paraphrase
> somewhat) a bunch of old farts who, regardless of their prior
> experience, just did not understand the modern Internet and
> publishing and therefore would not be listened to no matter what
> they had to say.  That message was rather clear and, since the
> process was not an IETF one, appeals and the like felt rather
> hopeless.  So, some people just moved on to other things and
> others concluded that the IETF was on enough of a downhill slide
> that issues like publication formats made little difference.
> 
> The good news is that there apparently weren't very many of us.
> 
> (Also, I think the use of the ToC for quickly estimating a
> document's throw weight is a valid one. I previously
> suggested associating a BogoPages metric with each non
> paginated RFC for this purpose.)
> 
> Well, the byte count serves fairly well for that too.
> 
> Sure.  So does a line count given a format.  But, while I'm
> reconciled to do it, time I spend re-understanding and then
> rebuilding macros that are a couple of decades old is time that
> isn't spent on IETF substantive work.  The question is whether
> whatever benefits are gained by eliminating pagination from RFCs
> -- presumably gains to those who continue to use the text form
> rather than HTML or PDF because the latter two groups are
> irrelevant -- are sufficient to justify that.
> 
>   john
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards
>   Brian
> 
> 
> 
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