RE: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?

Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting> Tue, 27 October 2020 22:09 UTC

Return-Path: <andrew.campling@419.consulting>
X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77CEC3A1520; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:09:36 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.901
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=netorgft5189650.onmicrosoft.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6Az_tVCZPXg; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:09:34 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from GBR01-CWL-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr110072.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.11.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B008C3A0F61; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:09:33 -0700 (PDT)
ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=V20dgc4fyeu51wE9Wvj2/DgDPhPd+t68HJAThZ4guJxbjkqMB896429G7C1VCACJ4xB341pur4boTbtfJsQOy6QxXDJuB7kDxFOlfPeEtN5okqI76Yyz8twK2/+xXyH1gf+19Pl39+gx8qRDq3XriAG5QiBvhyVDarBD2TXEYaNd5cIvCpPw3iaLi08Dw1knHwfu81rKIJ5COtf5IalcmwFsZ0StPq5qnzuDMDlOUUgYOJMLFxhr4c9/drzsgnrYk7kj5p38k5ZMv4EKckfeuEc4X3pkmvXCmQ8xtT4D8GQWEUsSoJES/Jr5+7m7Jg+HXkgD9uVjSUBzZb3iWx80+g==
ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=v91X1/OCUbATPBC0Od7zmKAZeTSGSpeBYgbbfdiEAoE=; b=DE3v+o/jPK2NKh2P3rOyA9IR+Yspn2L3UU3TaiwQQQf/wP/xtc+d4MehXEwf8onkFiJs4CIY+lpp0b7Y9Mr06G/LVe9FjVE54c1OuIC7wT1IrZ8TIfhbDmF60GqsSCh4v6LBoA9brHxyvR/iPLCYbPdxYTR6FAyDdHxx0Lc/IhzcPwr+2XWMmZLKE9Y9zvhlf/oj6vmZ4QwzSNobJQYi0KoCFBSmM0L4iz9FHpG4pY25qolTxBl7qdtldg8aXwYqVdbmA15T/Z8mzQW5qRcEwEkBYW+tCWSuuCBc+YHL6fiDxr1z0GALobOU2tMn8kfWy8GjbEIkvdJ0VRplXXnLdg==
ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=419.consulting; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=419.consulting; dkim=pass header.d=419.consulting; arc=none
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=NETORGFT5189650.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-NETORGFT5189650-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=v91X1/OCUbATPBC0Od7zmKAZeTSGSpeBYgbbfdiEAoE=; b=Nld7UaSqyNa1+u3BPsQo/Nj7Z7B5ImaMS2NLlgK5MrEXPBTpDxnwVRwlG593LoNryko40jAIrXSUO9jJ4xHnfsg+ybLTE6Etq10WihsaJyh4NJBHkus1DrrV7GJz0dY4L0BzVp0h+8uRaSWq9DrKG0zvEI/BLq4V58USKutxrqE=
Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:71::15) by LO0P265MB2779.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:600:14e::5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3499.18; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:09:30 +0000
Received: from LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6]) by LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM ([fe80::199b:a430:6264:9bf6%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3499.018; Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:09:30 +0000
From: Andrew Campling <andrew.campling@419.consulting>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
CC: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, "wgchairs@ietf.org" <wgchairs@ietf.org>, "rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org" <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>, "rsoc@iab.org" <rsoc@iab.org>, "ietf@johnlevine.com" <ietf@johnlevine.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Topic: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?
Thread-Index: AQHWq+N3HvJn+rLstkK3yiPvDi3V3qmsAGcQ
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:09:30 +0000
Message-ID: <LO2P265MB0573F31F3B7A158B704A64A3C2160@LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
References: <CADaq8je8gMwAkOndTNJ9ndwzOZb2HQMZrCUJ5wNUjw-6ax9QtA@mail.gmail.com> <35EFE952-7786-4E24-B228-9BEE51D3C876@tzi.org> <20201026150241.GK48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20201026162814.GP39170@kduck.mit.edu> <20201026164036.GO48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <1a56dc3b-56ef-3ffb-a12b-44d5e0d0f835@levkowetz.com> <20201026171931.GP48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <b733240-fc78-5a71-8920-ff84fbf64287@iecc.com> <20201026180105.GQ48111@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <03976f9f-7f49-7bf7-ce29-ee989232a44d@gmail.com> <20201026191042.GA59330@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <3fd0fd96-3073-cb4f-86a0-f6ea39bc4797@gmail.com> <5B231270-EF23-4CB7-8B74-1C0216452ECF@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <5B231270-EF23-4CB7-8B74-1C0216452ECF@tzi.org>
Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
authentication-results: tzi.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;tzi.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=419.consulting;
x-originating-ip: [2a00:23c4:a499:2e00:edb8:8c:7011:c0a2]
x-ms-publictraffictype: Email
x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 298cfb15-f7de-4284-9d44-08d87ac4fa5e
x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: LO0P265MB2779:
x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: <LO0P265MB2779295DC2897C31734BE660C2160@LO0P265MB2779.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508;
x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1
x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;
x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: pZBVm3J+pJ4+p/QVPfEuIlXGAblaGS/xX/SjU99R6IUVIuGmxUNGAgB3CE/17I0XpTMrDAs6YXOHbSR84taVHTdwOrf+aqKZDS08FOW725D82Wlh9fgkhQj9DSp3uTWqVkX105DB/5PA+5TTpVkBwAcYyMItWV/bmTu2VA+M4w+ReT1PNIyFOGZeA5coo+doMrAhQ8ClLRNcoUFrllNZKQuUZGVGW3QFmSKZbzTsBhqslZ21JJu3dTfvnxsEY3Q8hVJo0FlMUXaWnUdSMcFJ3esNq2iezuTMD5cNmqedSa7MjqZmKzFvCbOQQyRargyDToxUZCuez+8w2BUsTJHDpqF60HWX+AoiNtkSu4KRlE/BholWcV3HXdxm71BfXrEa
x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(376002)(396003)(366004)(346002)(136003)(39830400003)(44832011)(7696005)(66946007)(2906002)(76116006)(66476007)(4001150100001)(478600001)(4326008)(83380400001)(55016002)(53546011)(5660300002)(9686003)(316002)(54906003)(66556008)(64756008)(33656002)(86362001)(8676002)(8936002)(66446008)(52536014)(71200400001)(110136005)(186003)(6506007)(46492008); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101;
x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 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
x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-OriginatorOrg: 419.consulting
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: LO2P265MB0573.GBRP265.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 298cfb15-f7de-4284-9d44-08d87ac4fa5e
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Oct 2020 22:09:30.4559 (UTC)
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 9c2ced3e-7522-4755-87dc-f983abc66ec3
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED
X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: l/l0jbVabdkmdcxN2ceF8nvB8LUwmHOiqQfTRiPQoB2sQkzB2877R6ecmuy0Iy+12IpKGYsYfOxPaoj0DfBsKngyDIh2ypcP9LJixC7T430=
X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: LO0P265MB2779
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/70pC1nPMLEMjAKV-4nj29vB4tkI>
X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/wgchairs/>
List-Post: <mailto:wgchairs@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 22:09:37 -0000

As general comment on the topic, I have to say that I'd never thought of either page numbers nor indeed pagination to be remotely controversial topics.  Clearly this debate is proving otherwise!  

For those of us that might prefer to read printed documents, especially documents of more than a few pages in length, page numbers are particularly help to ensure that the order of the documents does not become jumbled.  Those that appear to be taking a position that pagination is obsolete might want to reflect on the importance of making IETF materials readily accessible to a wider audience, many of whom may be accustomed to printable documents with tables of contents inclusive of page numbers, pages with footers incorporating page numbers etc.  

Andrew

-----Original Message-----
From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> 
Sent: 26 October 2020 21:33
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>; wgchairs@ietf.org; rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org; rsoc@iab.org; ietf@johnlevine.com; ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Poll: RFCs with page numbers (pretty please) ?

On 2020-10-26, at 22:16, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Maybe it's because I was brought up on paper tape rather than punch cards,

Ah!  I used both in the 1970s, but more punch cards, and even my paper tape was mostly Z-folded not rolled…  That explains it.

> but I can't see why anybody cares about pagination in 2020.

Proof by lack of imagination :-)

Apparently these people do exist, and they have been speaking up with their use cases.

Grüße, Carsten