Re: [irsg] Resending: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences

David Noveck <davenoveck@gmail.com> Mon, 26 October 2020 15:05 UTC

Return-Path: <davenoveck@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D733A0C0A for <wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:05:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EoHEFjCZa6CZ for <wgchairs@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F383A0A07 for <wgchairs@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id p13so9723579edi.7 for <wgchairs@ietf.org>; Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gCi7q3lAgInnA3P+JQf5qsR6en1Ca38rpzuat+0W/yQ=; b=k1H9SJ9iDSMHB01BUCkxmEsjGwj/zLgk+OoMVuX/nRNcBuc/ENLCw4HUDqmbVrvo7I ICoBTixyp3SMBPJYiBElMgmC6VAo+uV9SSmLWpcAY3HFNr6ZAkF2NZ81B9KzpaAOXBBV Y9bHDqxXTr0h/qDp+ANnp1dcun6SaHCRTpz1hfWzXu4bEDvI/qoWCPUtLDSuI52w4njV BCzIidqFRaYg+8eAH/UnQmoqfVrWpd35U98Us8NdcGJvSF5vcRhhOWYDi3+cAgfM51xi ieom95tVXUPCZumvBazIl4ky5y8ATgZkiwmXcrnfOiM+t305djrMuPhWvk7EyUhAiw7Y v3Aw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gCi7q3lAgInnA3P+JQf5qsR6en1Ca38rpzuat+0W/yQ=; b=i/36e9T737nZVIzBYqs7mHQUFfXZGyz/0OSYGbYSmUPi4c0uPTHwNyyDNL8SBDoPKG HX/aplyB/AUIe7oluGY+ENTcwZchieu4ULmLIP82O8ZvLonvDp0O2XaVeokCsbtJ4TFF 1p1Vzh9PB+RDVvAVwShiHTM386bdoTY9TvjHQaApru9cdfHSS7z8Ow0wZ43fsNoC5Yf2 rCYOGdwKyzIWzISJxa2nlamNzsLqTfB0YXkssePImQ4odT2KLZ5nxb6gf/81nmUG4f+G 1929IgqPN8ofp1h4fHc5Sazu83qTkQhtbkvVrJJGmH33KHyodeQhKQ+gocAY6A6wO6XW HtyA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533awnLqhayXwr7jzVu1IxQnoCBitNaktgU5+hq+44CHM1Azxomj jXCXQgSEJ1eiMpYBTVbb1Pvoo8fPWaHEcblyjy0=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxR5yXF9h4nLqA3V9A1TC3WSXZNvqgeHMYGh9Nlm+0BXgh4lVCqyVST7JGLas7zEaZ2FGXOOCOByN/96YBfQ5w=
X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d790:: with SMTP id s16mr8552698edq.63.1603724700742; Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20201026020433.GA19475@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <CADaq8je8gMwAkOndTNJ9ndwzOZb2HQMZrCUJ5wNUjw-6ax9QtA@mail.gmail.com> <35EFE952-7786-4E24-B228-9BEE51D3C876@tzi.org>
In-Reply-To: <35EFE952-7786-4E24-B228-9BEE51D3C876@tzi.org>
From: David Noveck <davenoveck@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 11:04:49 -0400
Message-ID: <CADaq8je85zUHcCOMW6wCy+fiYUPfVE-1sjy3_Xhsxg85ACOkpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [irsg] Resending: Page numbers in RFCs questions / preferences
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
Cc: Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de>, WG Chairs <wgchairs@ietf.org>, RFC Interest <rfc-interest@rfc-editor.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001afaa205b29441c8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/wgchairs/cgHzLSBw-Odwhl2UDGhaHa13nKo>
X-BeenThere: wgchairs@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Working Group Chairs <wgchairs.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/wgchairs/>
List-Post: <mailto:wgchairs@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/wgchairs>, <mailto:wgchairs-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 15:05:04 -0000

On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 8:55 AM Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:

> On 2020-10-26, at 11:51, David Noveck <davenoveck@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I think it happened with the conversion to v3 xml.  At that time, the
> 72-character-ragged-right .txt format ceased to be considered canonical
> (long overdue in my opinion).  As a result, in accord with some RFC that I
> was pointed to, a decision was made (by whom it wasn't clear) to make all
> TOCs the same, so that the pdf and text TOCs lost theirs since there was no
> way to add them to html which doesn't have them.  The logic is impeccable
> if you grant the premises and nobody ever considered rethinking the
> premises when it resulted in nearly useless printed documents. Sigh!
>
> Obviously, with canonical XML, there is no good solution to this problem:


It's not clear what problem you are referring to.


> Different renditions will have different concepts of pages, so the TOC’s
> won’t align.
>

There's no reason for them to align with each other.   The paperback and
hardcover editions of books have different TOCs but there is no need for
them to be the same, as long as each matches the document it is a TOC for.

(That is not a good argument for then finally choosing what is probably the
> worst possible solution to this problem.


Actually it's a non-solution to a non-problem.


> I think what happened is that nobody thought about PDF where we continue
> to have pages,


 I think that's probably true.

so there never really was a problem specific to retaining pages and thus
> page numbers in the TXT.)
>
>  I guess this is because nobody thought about TXT files being printed
either.


Grüße, Carsten
>
>