Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 04 March 2009 15:02 UTC
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:03:03 +0100
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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To: "Stan Ratliff (sratliff)" <sratliff@cisco.com>
References: <499F0BA7.90501@piuha.net> <7E8A76F7-2CE0-463A-8EE8-8877C46B4715@gmail.com> <49A6D436.7020505@gmail.com><000001c99845$1dc56190$595024b0$@nl> <49A6F125.40400@gmail.com><1235680887.4585.5.camel@localhost> <002f01c998bf$8f112210$ad336630$@nl><49A7E58C.2020303@gmail.com> <007201c99903$c4182c80$4c488580$@nl><49A82E55.10208@gmail.com> <007b01c99911$907facf0$b17f06d0$@nl><49A8471E.6090506@gmail.com> <009501c99920$92154340$b63fc9c0$@nl><49A944FF.9000102@gmail.com> <003001c99b2c$a3fcf4a0$ebf6dde0$@nl><49AD5184.6080300@gmail.com> <000101c99c3c$3121a870$9364f950$@nl><49AD9760.3080909@gmail.com> <49AD98D4.3@earthlink.net><49AD9EA8.6040803@gmail.com> <49ADA17B.9040600@earthlink.net><49ADAF7C.1050509@gmail.com> <49ADB9FB.6050600@earthlink.net> <49AE3A3A.5000305@gmail.com> <7FB7EE0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC76407B5D783@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com>
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Cc: autoconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
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Stan Ratliff (sratliff) a écrit : [...] > We've already been over the 25m subnet thing. It's a non-starter. > Limiting movement, or mandating that a DHCP or DNS server is always > on and available is also a non-starter. 25m subnets with "always on" > DNS/DHCP servers sounds to me like a few guys gathering together to > play "Doom" at their local coffee shop. I deploy MANET networks for > governmental applications. Think disaster recovery, like after > Hurricane Katrina, or the last round of wildfires in California. Do > you think it appropriate to tell the firefighters "you can't let the > trucks get more than 25m apart, or your network breaks"? Or, "if your > DNS server should fail, just forget what you're doing and go home"? No, I don't think it appropriate. But I didn't mean to imply AUTOCONF networks span only 25meter range - they could be made of several such single subnets. > So, once again, no -- 25m subnets don't make sense and won't work in > the environments where I'm deploying networks. Placing this type of > limitation on AUTOCONF will, IMO, make the work output useless. How about a unit being a 25m subnet containing exposed terminals; and a network growing as a chain of such units, linked by routers. Would this make more sense? The disaster relief scenarios you describe also have certain limits of movements. For example: -firefighter never gets very far away from truck. -among all intervening trucks only some are designated as special, for example command and control. -etc. Expressing this inherent structure in terms of subnet structure can be very useful. Alex > > Stan > > >>> Watching your DNS server [(m) or not!] move from place to >> place in an >>> ad hoc network, sometimes finding itself partitioned from your >>> favorite node, could be an exciting and enlightening adventure. >> I agree we could find very dynamic ways of Routers and Hosts of an >> ad-hoc network moving in and out such that subnet structure is not >> maintained, and thus servers not being reachable. But unless we >> describe these movements we can't deal with them. >> >>>>> Who said we had to avoid size limits? >>>> Well we don't have size limits in the charter proposal, we >> don't have >>>> agreement on '25m IPv6 subnets', we don't have limits on >> the types of >>>> the link layers involved. >>> If you are talking about an ad hoc network with 25,000,000 >>> subnets, then I am basically not on the same page. And not in >>> the >> same decade. >> >> Sorry I meant 25meters not millions. A '25m IPv6 subnet' would be >> a wireless coverage area of radius 25meter, without obstacles, and >> within which there are only exposed terminals, fully transitive and >> symmetric communications. >> >> Would you agree such a subnet makes sense? Does not make sense? >> >>>> However, your question seems to imply you think there may be a >>>> limit: AUTOCONF network is small enough to accommodate >>>> host-based routes. Is it this? >>> I think the network has to accomodate the routes needed for >>> connectivity to destinations within the network. >>> >>> Again, just saying "subnet" doesn't buy even one gram of >>> additional scalability. You need more. >>> >>> You need a procedure for enabling aggregation. Such a >> procedure is not >>> always available. >> If by aggregation is meant addressing aggregation (as Teco also >> proposes a /60 prefix assigned to several Routers themselves >> assigning /64 prefixes to their links) then I think we should not >> strive to respect aggregation. Address aggregation wouldn't make >> sense if we talk host-based routes either. >> >>>>> Well, to me it did sound very negative. Moreover, I think it >>>>> is just fine to pass around subnet prefixes, if you have >>>>> subnets. >>>> Charles, yes - the subnets are there first, before IP. >> Once the link >>>> is up the subnet is the set of nodes on it. In this sense >> I agree it >>>> is just fine to pass subnet prefixes around. >>> This is wrong*2. First, there is IP, which fixes the >> address format >>> and address modes. Then there are subnets. Some people >> here probably >>> remember when the word "subnet" starting coming into more >> active use. >>> >>> Second, just because nodes are reachable over the air as >>> neighbors, does not imply they are on the same IP subnet. Trying >>> to maintain otherwise leads to madness. >>> >>> Surely you will agree. A subnet is an abstraction to support >>> more efficient routing. It is not a wire or a piece of plastic >>> or a contiguous region of space. >> I can live with that. >> >> However, I think the simplest cases we have to deal with have very >> simple subnet structure that we should take advantage of. >> >> Alex >> >> _______________________________________________ Autoconf mailing >> list Autoconf@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf >> >
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Paul Lambert
- [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot