Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
"Joe Macker" <joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil> Thu, 05 March 2009 16:55 UTC
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From: Joe Macker <joseph.macker@nrl.navy.mil>
To: "'Stan Ratliff (sratliff)'" <sratliff@cisco.com>, 'Alexandru Petrescu' <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
References: <499F0BA7.90501@piuha.net> <7E8A76F7-2CE0-463A-8EE8-8877C46B4715@gmail.com> <49A6D436.7020505@gmail.com><000001c99845$1dc56190$595024b0$@nl> <49A6F125.40400@gmail.com><1235680887.4585.5.camel@localhost> <002f01c998bf$8f112210$ad336630$@nl><49A7E58C.2020303@gmail.com> <007201c99903$c4182c80$4c488580$@nl><49A82E55.10208@gmail.com> <007b01c99911$907facf0$b17f06d0$@nl><49A8471E.6090506@gmail.com> <009501c99920$92154340$b63fc9c0$@nl><49A944FF.9000102@gmail.com> <003001c99b2c$a3fcf4a0$ebf6dde0$@nl><49AD5184.6080300@gmail.com> <000101c99c3c$3121a870$9364f950$@nl><49AD9760.3080909@gmail.com> <49AD98D4.3@earthlink.net><49AD9EA8.6040803@gmail.com> <49ADA17B.9040600@earthlink.net><49ADAF7C.1050509@gmail.com> <49ADB9FB.6050600@earthlink.net> <49AE3A3A.5000305@gmail.com> <7FB7EE0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC76407B5D783@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com> <49AE9827.5090309@gmail.com> <7FB7EE0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC76407B5D803@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com> <49AEBA6D.7030903@gmail.com> <7FB7EE! 0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC 76407B5DB1F@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com>
In-Reply-To: <7FB7EE0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC76407B5DB1F@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:55:34 -0500
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Cc: autoconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
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Ditto what Stan says... for what its worth. > -----Original Message----- > From: autoconf-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:autoconf-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stan Ratliff (sratliff) > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 4:35 PM > To: Alexandru Petrescu > Cc: autoconf@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Alexandru Petrescu [mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 12:29 PM > > To: Stan Ratliff (sratliff) > > Cc: Charles E. Perkins; autoconf@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model > > > > Stan Ratliff (sratliff) a écrit : > > > First off, you *can't* arbitrarily limit subnets to 25m. 25m from > > > what? The center? > > > > Yes, an area of 25meters with a wifi access point in the center. > > *By definition*, what you describe is not a MANET. As you state, that's just a WiFi access point. That's > already solved -- 802.11 clients can roam from access point to access point. But again, this should not be > an 802.11-centric discussion. > > > > > > And, how do you designate the center? Do you constantly > > re-calculate > > > the center based on movement? > > > > No, not constantly re-computed. But have a fixed view at a > > point in time. Saying everything varies isn't helpful either. > > > > It may not be helpful, but it's reality. You can't rely on a fixed view of a dynamic network; again, by > definition, there's movement in a MANET. Links come and go, and link quality varies from moment to moment. > > > > > Also, from a radio perspective, how do you tell how far > > apart you are > > > in the first place? Do you suppose that all radios have > > GPS? That's a > > > non-starter, because GPS signals aren't always available. > > > > No I didn't suppose GPS is available on each device, it > > wouldn't work well under foliage. Just a rough evaluation of > > a specific link-layer radio range, correspondign to widely > > used networks. > > > > > And what about the wired MANET case brought up by Christopher > > > Dearlove? Should we limit the cable runs? > > > > YEs, certainly. All cabled link-layers have specific > > limitations on their lengths: 2m USB, 50m Ethernet Category6 > > (IIRC) and so on. > > > > > I could understand (but > > > wouldn't really like) the notion of limiting the discussion > > to links > > > that are transitive; but placing some arbitrary distance > > limit that's > > > based on 802.11 just doesn't cut it for me. > > > > 802.11 is being used widely, no reason to ignore. > > I'm not advocating we "ignore" 802.11, or any other L2 technology, for that matter. I'm advocating that we > remain Layer 2 agnostic. As Teco mentioned in another email, there are people in this WG that don't deploy > MANET networks based on 802.11, or 802.16, or 802.15.4. > > > > > I'd happily accept to add another specific limitation, from > > the link-layer of your choice. And be speecifically > > addressing these two link layers. And maybe three. No more > > than three. > > > > I find addressing them all to be difficult for me. > > I don't understand why the Layer 3 addressing scheme needs to be predicated on a specific Layer 2 > technology, or set of technologies. The Layer 3 addressing scheme should be totally independent of Layer 2 - > - isn't that what layering is all about? > > > > > (about single point of failure being destroyed by a falling tree: > > problem could be addressed at its layer: don't move the > > command center > > under trees risking falling); or maybe have two command centers, but > > specificllay two, not an arbitrary large unknown number. > > > > That essentially boils down to "if it hurts, don't do it", and it doesn't work for my customers. Their > environments are dynamic, and they need the ability to respond to ever-changing realities on the ground. > > At this point, I feel that we're in a discussion that is becoming more and more circular, and therefore, > dysfunctional. And that, IMO, has been the unfortunate reality of this WG since its inception. > > Regards, > Stan > > > > Alex > > > _______________________________________________ > Autoconf mailing list > Autoconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Paul Lambert
- [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot