Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 04 March 2009 08:22 UTC
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:22:18 +0100
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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To: "Charles E. Perkins" <charles.perkins@earthlink.net>
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Cc: autoconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
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Charles E. Perkins a écrit : >>> That's fine, as long as the destination is addressable within a >>> subnet. If the destination does not live on a subnet, why not >>> use a host route (i.e., /128 address)? >> >> Because it wouldn't allow the AUTOCONF network to grow larger and >> more dynamic. > > Just saying "subnet" doesn't do that either, though. In fact, the > signaling to support subnets could (conceivably) be even more > complicated than the signaling to support host routes. I agree link-layer signalling within each subnet, for the purpose of maintaining that subnet coherent, may contain numerous messages. >>>> -I would avoid the assumption that an ad-hoc router maintains a >>>> stable IP address while moving around. >>> >>> Then you will have trouble. There is no free lunch. Either: (a) >>> the IP address stays the same, and the routes change, or (b) the >>> IP address changes, and there is a resolver to associate the IP >>> address with some other identifier. >>> >>> Since the design of the resolver in (b) is an unknown and >>> arguably much more difficult, I'll take (a) with a great sigh of >>> relief. >> >> Resolvers such as (m)DNS or some DHCP features could work I >> believe. I don't understand why it's claimed much more difficult. > > I assure you it is not trivial to implement DNS or DHCP inside an ad > hoc network. Most of the proposals I have seen for this have located > the function _outside_ the ad hoc network, for convenient and > straightforward access when connectivity is actually available. Well if the subnet structure is coherent and things don't move around too much then putting a DNS Server or a DHCP Server in the ad-hoc network should be easy. By not moving too much I mean each node not moving out of its 25meter radius. > Watching your DNS server [(m) or not!] move from place to place in an > ad hoc network, sometimes finding itself partitioned from your > favorite node, could be an exciting and enlightening adventure. I agree we could find very dynamic ways of Routers and Hosts of an ad-hoc network moving in and out such that subnet structure is not maintained, and thus servers not being reachable. But unless we describe these movements we can't deal with them. >>> Who said we had to avoid size limits? >> >> Well we don't have size limits in the charter proposal, we don't >> have agreement on '25m IPv6 subnets', we don't have limits on the >> types of the link layers involved. > > If you are talking about an ad hoc network with 25,000,000 subnets, > then I am basically not on the same page. And not in the same > decade. Sorry I meant 25meters not millions. A '25m IPv6 subnet' would be a wireless coverage area of radius 25meter, without obstacles, and within which there are only exposed terminals, fully transitive and symmetric communications. Would you agree such a subnet makes sense? Does not make sense? >> However, your question seems to imply you think there may be a >> limit: AUTOCONF network is small enough to accommodate host-based >> routes. Is it this? > > I think the network has to accomodate the routes needed for > connectivity to destinations within the network. > > Again, just saying "subnet" doesn't buy even one gram of additional > scalability. You need more. > > You need a procedure for enabling aggregation. Such a procedure is > not always available. If by aggregation is meant addressing aggregation (as Teco also proposes a /60 prefix assigned to several Routers themselves assigning /64 prefixes to their links) then I think we should not strive to respect aggregation. Address aggregation wouldn't make sense if we talk host-based routes either. >>> Well, to me it did sound very negative. Moreover, I think it is >>> just fine to pass around subnet prefixes, if you have subnets. >> >> Charles, yes - the subnets are there first, before IP. Once the >> link is up the subnet is the set of nodes on it. In this sense I >> agree it is just fine to pass subnet prefixes around. > > This is wrong*2. First, there is IP, which fixes the address format > and address modes. Then there are subnets. Some people here > probably remember when the word "subnet" starting coming into more > active use. > > > Second, just because nodes are reachable over the air as neighbors, > does not imply they are on the same IP subnet. Trying to maintain > otherwise leads to madness. > > Surely you will agree. A subnet is an abstraction to support more > efficient routing. It is not a wire or a piece of plastic or a > contiguous region of space. I can live with that. However, I think the simplest cases we have to deal with have very simple subnet structure that we should take advantage of. Alex
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Paul Lambert
- [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot