Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Wed, 04 March 2009 17:19 UTC
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Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:20:06 +0100
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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To: Teco Boot <teco@inf-net.nl>
References: <499F0BA7.90501@piuha.net> <7E8A76F7-2CE0-463A-8EE8-8877C46B4715@gmail.com> <49A6D436.7020505@gmail.com><000001c99845$1dc56190$595024b0$@nl> <49A6F125.40400@gmail.com><1235680887.4585.5.camel@localhost> <002f01c998bf$8f112210$ad336630$@nl><49A7E58C.2020303@gmail.com> <007201c99903$c4182c80$4c488580$@nl><49A82E55.10208@gmail.com> <007b01c99911$907facf0$b17f06d0$@nl><49A8471E.6090506@gmail.com> <009501c99920$92154340$b63fc9c0$@nl><49A944FF.9000102@gmail.com> <003001c99b2c$a3fcf4a0$ebf6dde0$@nl><49AD5184.6080300@gmail.com> <000101c99c3c$3121a870$9364f950$@nl><49AD9760.3080909@gmail.com> <49AD98D4.3@earthlink.net><49AD9EA8.6040803@gmail.com> <49ADA17B.9040600@earthlink.net><49ADAF7C.1050509@gmail.com> <49ADB9FB.6050600@earthlink.net> <49AE3A3A.5000305@gmail.com> <7FB7EE0A621BA44B8B69E5F0A09DC76407B5D783@xmb-rtp-208.amer.cisco.com> <49AE9827.5090309@gmail.com> <000c01c99ce9$e09bf500$a1d3df00$@nl>
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Cc: autoconf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model
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Teco Boot a écrit : > Alex, > > It happen to be I am working on the customer side, not the equipment > vendor / supplier side. I can say your limitations for 25meter and a > requirement for relay nodes with multiple interfaces are far, far > from acceptable. I go for what Stan says. Sorry, I cannot go into > details on what the specs are. I am not in the position to say you, > this is not the medium to publish and moreover, there is no need for > these details. We in IETF never went in this before (e.g. there is no > range limitation for ICMP messages). I meant to say to explicitely consider the characteristics of the link-layers you consider for AUTOCONF ad-hoc networks. These all have specifications about their physical lengths (for wired), for dbm powerlevels and range in meters (wireless). I can't build a network without knowing these specifications in detail; its IP addressing architecture is impossible to agree on. Alex > > Thanks, Teco > > |-----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- |Van: autoconf-bounces@ietf.org > [mailto:autoconf-bounces@ietf.org] Namens |Alexandru Petrescu > |Verzonden: woensdag 4 maart 2009 16:03 |Aan: Stan Ratliff (sratliff) > |CC: autoconf@ietf.org |Onderwerp: Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf > addressing model | |Stan Ratliff (sratliff) a écrit : |[...] |> We've > already been over the 25m subnet thing. It's a non-starter. |> > Limiting movement, or mandating that a DHCP or DNS server is always > |> on and available is also a non-starter. 25m subnets with "always > on" |> DNS/DHCP servers sounds to me like a few guys gathering > together to |> play "Doom" at their local coffee shop. I deploy MANET > networks for |> governmental applications. Think disaster recovery, > like after |> Hurricane Katrina, or the last round of wildfires in > California. Do |> you think it appropriate to tell the firefighters > "you can't let the |> trucks get more than 25m apart, or your network > breaks"? Or, "if your |> DNS server should fail, just forget what > you're doing and go home"? | |No, I don't think it appropriate. | > |But I didn't mean to imply AUTOCONF networks span only 25meter range > - |they could be made of several such single subnets. | |> So, once > again, no -- 25m subnets don't make sense and won't work in |> the > environments where I'm deploying networks. Placing this type of |> > limitation on AUTOCONF will, IMO, make the work output useless. | > |How about a unit being a 25m subnet containing exposed terminals; > and a |network growing as a chain of such units, linked by routers. > Would this |make more sense? | |The disaster relief scenarios you > describe also have certain limits of |movements. For example: > |-firefighter never gets very far away from truck. |-among all > intervening trucks only some are designated as special, for | > example command and control. |-etc. | |Expressing this inherent > structure in terms of subnet structure can be |very useful. | |Alex | > |> |> Stan |> |> |>>> Watching your DNS server [(m) or not!] move > from place to |>> place in an |>>> ad hoc network, sometimes finding > itself partitioned from your |>>> favorite node, could be an exciting > and enlightening adventure. |>> I agree we could find very dynamic > ways of Routers and Hosts of an |>> ad-hoc network moving in and out > such that subnet structure is not |>> maintained, and thus servers > not being reachable. But unless we |>> describe these movements we > can't deal with them. |>> |>>>>> Who said we had to avoid size > limits? |>>>> Well we don't have size limits in the charter proposal, > we |>> don't have |>>>> agreement on '25m IPv6 subnets', we don't > have limits on |>> the types of |>>>> the link layers involved. |>>> > If you are talking about an ad hoc network with 25,000,000 |>>> > subnets, then I am basically not on the same page. And not in |>>> > the |>> same decade. |>> |>> Sorry I meant 25meters not millions. A > '25m IPv6 subnet' would be |>> a wireless coverage area of radius > 25meter, without obstacles, and |>> within which there are only > exposed terminals, fully transitive and |>> symmetric > communications. |>> |>> Would you agree such a subnet makes sense? > Does not make sense? |>> |>>>> However, your question seems to imply > you think there may be a |>>>> limit: AUTOCONF network is small > enough to accommodate |>>>> host-based routes. Is it this? |>>> I > think the network has to accomodate the routes needed for |>>> > connectivity to destinations within the network. |>>> |>>> Again, > just saying "subnet" doesn't buy even one gram of |>>> additional > scalability. You need more. |>>> |>>> You need a procedure for > enabling aggregation. Such a |>> procedure is not |>>> always > available. |>> If by aggregation is meant addressing aggregation (as > Teco also |>> proposes a /60 prefix assigned to several Routers > themselves |>> assigning /64 prefixes to their links) then I think we > should not |>> strive to respect aggregation. Address aggregation > wouldn't make |>> sense if we talk host-based routes either. |>> > |>>>>> Well, to me it did sound very negative. Moreover, I think it > |>>>>> is just fine to pass around subnet prefixes, if you have > |>>>>> subnets. |>>>> Charles, yes - the subnets are there first, > before IP. |>> Once the link |>>>> is up the subnet is the set of > nodes on it. In this sense |>> I agree it |>>>> is just fine to pass > subnet prefixes around. |>>> This is wrong*2. First, there is IP, > which fixes the |>> address format |>>> and address modes. Then > there are subnets. Some people |>> here probably |>>> remember when > the word "subnet" starting coming into more |>> active use. |>>> |>>> > Second, just because nodes are reachable over the air as |>>> > neighbors, does not imply they are on the same IP subnet. Trying > |>>> to maintain otherwise leads to madness. |>>> |>>> Surely you > will agree. A subnet is an abstraction to support |>>> more > efficient routing. It is not a wire or a piece of plastic |>>> or a > contiguous region of space. |>> I can live with that. |>> |>> > However, I think the simplest cases we have to deal with have very > |>> simple subnet structure that we should take advantage of. |>> |>> > Alex |>> |>> _______________________________________________ Autoconf > mailing |>> list Autoconf@ietf.org |>> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf |>> |> | | > |_______________________________________________ |Autoconf mailing > list |Autoconf@ietf.org > |https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf > >
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Paul Lambert
- [Autoconf] new charter Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing (was: new cha… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Rex Buddenberg
- Re: [Autoconf] practical addressing Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Carlos Jesús Bernardos Cano
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model HyungJin Lim
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] radio neighbors in range Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Stan Ratliff (sratliff)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Joe Macker
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] Autoconf addressing model Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] new charter Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] new charter Teco Boot