Re: [dmarc-ietf] ARC questions

Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com> Mon, 23 November 2020 22:30 UTC

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To: John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, dmarc@ietf.org
References: <dcc265f9-a143-5093-eba0-94ee059c7cc7@mtcc.com> <CAMSGcLCzN5q_p_TtUqv5CvwC0ZTkAY9eFaT_za-1WJXgRUmF4A@mail.gmail.com> <CAHej_8nN+827KB+tTuyoeZXoUaKzcYoeizNmwSY-fKTquroPMA@mail.gmail.com> <e3d428f4-1a29-4c6f-4a31-96a24a347e54@gmail.com> <rph9gd$2mp3$1@gal.iecc.com>
From: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@gmail.com>
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Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 14:30:30 -0800
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Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] ARC questions
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On 11/23/2020 1:27 PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <e3d428f4-1a29-4c6f-4a31-96a24a347e54@gmail.com>om>,
> Dave Crocker  <dcrocker@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I believe, though, that the intent of ARC is that it be scalable in
>>> ways that manual enumeration of known legit mailing lists and
>>> forwarders is not.
>> "if you know which hosts are legit" buries an assumption that is
>> problematic, namely that you know who handled the message.  The fact
>> that a message purports to be handled by a mailing list you trust does
>> not mean it actually was.
> Pretty close, but not quite.
>
> You know that a message came from a mailing list because you have your
> list of IPs or DKIM signatures of lists you trust.

Except that was not stated or, really, even implied in the text of the 
message I was replying to.  Rather, something like that seemed to be 
taken as an assumption, but without any clear foundation.

For these kinds of discussions, which are mostly about understanding 
these capabilities clearly, accurately, and precisely, the core 
requirement is to separate the essential bits of information and the 
basis for knowing each bit.


> ARC deals with the problem that most list software forwards everything
> with a subscriber's address on the From: line and does a lousy job of
> spam filtering.

Forgive me but I believe misbehavior by mailing lists has never been 
meaningfully documented for this work.  Quite the contrary.

List mail has been collateral damage, not because lists have misbehaved 
but because they got caught by a spontaneous change in the email service 
by some providers.


d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
dcrocker@gmail.com
408.329.0791

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
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