Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

[Christer Holmberg <[e-mail]>]

Hi,

>No, I meant “flowers” like “flowers.ambulance”.
>
>The name has no significance.
>
>We do in fact want the name to be suggestive of  the function, mostly so that provisioning is easier.  However, if there was a flowers.ambulance, it should >work EXACTLY the same as if it was sos.ambulance, counseling.ambulance or non-government-non-emergencyservices.ambulance or sos.a15b23.
>
>The name has NO SIGNIFICANCE.  It’s just a token.

If that is true, we do we separate the sub-services to begin with? Why do we define sub-service specific registration procedures (even though they happen to be identical for the existing sub-services?

RFC 5031 defines semantics for the sos sub-service, and at least my understanding is that sos is to be used for emergency services, and nothing else. Where is it said that it is ok to use sos also for non-emergency services, and to use non-sos for emergency services?

If we start using non-sos for emergency services, and sos for non-emergency services, I think we will end up in a mess…

Regards,

Christer




On Jul 12, 2017, at 11:27 AM, Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Yes, but the name is “sos.flowers”, not “flowers”.

Further, if the receiving entity does not understand “sos.flowers” it will be treated as “sos”, and therefore any usage should correspond with the semantics of “sos”.

Failure to do this will mean calls that are not emergency calls (thereby not requiring immediate response) will be sent to the PSAP, and at least certain regulators and emergency service providers get very upset with this happening.

So any subtype meaning, in my view, must also complement the semantics of “sos”, rather than just replace it.

Regards

Keith



From: Ecrit [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Brian Rosen
Sent: 12 July 2017 16:21
To: Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

Vasil

There is NO SIGNIFICANCE to the name.  It can be “flowers” and work the same.

Whether you treat the call as an emergency call (priority, etc) cannot be determined by the urn NAME.

It might be determined by looking at the URN and comparing it to a list of URNs that should be treated specially, but you can’t infer that just because the urn starts with sos that it is an emergency call, or that if starts with “flower” that it isn’t an emergency call.

The name has no significance.

Brian

On Jul 12, 2017, at 10:49 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Hi Brian,
A service URN with a top-level service type of "sos" is used only when the user intends to establish an emergency call. The emergency call will be treated with priority in the network. For non-emergency numbers in one country sos shall not be used since priority there is not needed.

Best regards,

Vasil


Von: Brian Rosen [mailto:[e-mail]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2017 15:46
An: Aleksiev, Vasil <Vasi<mailto:[e-mail]>[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: Henning Schulzrinne <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Betreff: Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

Vasil

Once again, the name has no significance as long as it is unique.  We use the names as suggestive for the service to aid the service providers, regulators and public safety authorities in setting up the systems, but the urn name is not used by anything other than computer software during an emergency.

If one country has a service for an ambulance service that is considered an emergency service, but in another country it is not considered an emergency service, we can, and should still use the service in the sos tree for the non-emergency service.  On the other hand, if there was a country that had two ambulance services, one that was used for emergency transport and another that was used for non-emergency transport, then we would need two URNs, because we have distinct services and need different URNs.

Brian


On Jul 12, 2017, at 9:36 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Hi Henning,
I have looked at the list and noticed that you have also entered the other numbers for Austria, which are not emergency numbers. They shall not be under sos. This is what I see as other problem – there are services which you call for help - the respective service or vehicle is dispatched, but since they are not defined as emergency according to the law, they shall not be under sos domain.
For Austria you can also see in the law document (https://www.bmvit.gv.at/telekommunikation/recht/aut/rtrverordnung/downloads/kem_vo/2009212.pdf ) that the non-emergency services are:

130 Landeswarnzentralen (Country warning centre) – used in cases of storms, floods, different crisis, disaster control.
120, 123 Pannendienste – Roadside assistance.
1484-x Krankentransporte – ambulance services – only regional service.
116000 Hotline für vermiste Kinder – hotline for missinig children.
116111 Hotline für Hilfe suchender Kinder - hotline for searched (wanted) children.
116123 Hotline zur Lebenshilfe – hotline for support.
111 Telefonströrungsannahmestellen – Registering technical problems with telecommunication services.
118 Telefonauskunftsdienste – Telephone information services.

Some of them can be registered under counselling. Obviously road assistance and disaster line are not counselling services  - they can be defined under new domain – for example help.road.

Interesting is that 147 is emergency service, so it shall be sos.children, but 116000 shall be counselling.child.missing or help.child.missing. 116111 – help.child.wanted, 116123 – counselling.life (combination of mental-health and suicide). 1484-x help.ambulance. 111 – help.telecom, 118 – help.info<http://help.info/>.

The number which you have entered in the table of your file 01/406 43 43 and 0800/133133 are not present in the law document so they shall not at all be present in your file. The number starting with 01 is a normal number in Vienna, 0800 is a free phone service according to the law.

Best regards,

Vasil


Von: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:[e-mail]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2017 00:32
An: Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Betreff: Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

Vasil,

my apologies for missing the attachment. This is indeed quite helpful. I have started to collect those and some other numbers at

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18t1siLVrPTwyYWUm8TQK7EnwC9Y4hwkYZmEa846Pzig/edit?usp=sharing

I've "pencilled in" some tentative names in red mainly to make sure that there are no in-country duplications.

There are a number of to-do countries, but so far, I've noticed a few that are likely to be easy (well-defined), with some tentative names:

sos.child-protection (for emergency services that deal with child abuse)
sos.child-missing (for missing or abducted children)
sos.water (for water utility-related emergencies, similar to sos.gas)
sos.electric (for electricity-related emergencies)

No particular preference on whether to label the children-related ones

sos.children.protection
sos.children.missing

I'll raise a few others separately to avoid mixing threads.

Henning

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Henning,
I am sending the list attached. Sorry for not adding it in every email. It was present in the first mail that I have sent. It was prepared from 3GPP CT1 delegates as a list of emergency services in the respective countries according to current law – links to the law texts is also provided. Unfortunately we do not have more knowledge regarding other countries.
I gave the example with 147 again regarding not typical emergency service making sure that there is common understanding. Only the local law has the authority to say what services are emergency and all parties involved shall take this for granted and treat every aspect of the service as emergency including the sos registration.

I have tried to use google translate for the French document and it seems to be what you describe. But it is better somebody knowing French language to say more about it. Even if this service is activated under special circumstances it is still expected to have treatment as emergency call and it shall be under sos subspace.

According to the current law if subscriber from Telekom Italia goes to Austria and taking in mind emergency numbers in Italy dials 113 (Police) from phone with IMS registration, such call shall be stopped since 113 is not existing number in Austria. Dialling the number is leading and dialling of not existing number cannot route the call to emergency service.

Best regards,

Vasil





Von: Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>]
Gesendet: Dienstag, 11. Juli 2017 13:33
An: Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc: [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Betreff: Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

You mention a list (or lists) that you and others have compiled. Can you point at it (or attach the documents or presentations) as I'm afraid I don't have a good place to look?

One of the advantages that we have on this mailing list is that we can indeed draw on the expertise of a wide variety of international experts.

I also don't understand your comment regarding 147. I thought we had agreed that if a service exists as an emergency service, it will be added as an SOS URN, even if there's already a counseling version that's somewhat similar. Again, the user expectation should guide this since the goal is to fall back to something that the user isn't (too) surprised by if the service does not exist.

For France, the law seems to be at
https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000030973250

Interestingly, the link (via Google Translate) offers the following helpful advice:
"Finally, without calling into question the need of the Ministry of the Interior, the majority of contributions reminds us of the inefficiency and the risk of confusion associated with the multiplication of emergency numbers. Some operators reiterate the request made by the French Telecom Federation during the previous consultation of a reflection on the rationalization of emergency numbers."
From what I can tell, 197 is a number that combines two services, namely for citizens calling in information about an attack or a child abduction. The number is only activated after an incident and is otherwise dormant. In the US, we call them "tip lines" (although they are used for crimes in general, not just the two special cases). See
http://www.secourisme.net/spip.php?breve412&lang=fr

Henning

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 4:35 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hello,
I do not agree with your interpretation of emergency services. In one country only the local authority can define what are the emergency services. Since there is law saying that 147 Telefonseelsorge is emergency service, it shall be treated as such. Regarding the vehicle with flashing lights dispatched – you cannot guarantee for that the respective operator on 147 will not send the police for example via its own channel if this is needed. So in my understanding the approach shall be based on local law. Regarding the benefits in routing of having all the emergency services in one country under sos subspace I have given examples already. In the file that I have send I have added only the emergency services for Austria with the respective link to the written law. The same is done from other 3GPP CT1 delegates who have given the info regarding the other countries in the file. Ecrit experts can check the links and read the respective law requirements written in the languages of the respective country.
Regarding 197 service, the original name of the service of the name in French is: Alerte attentat – Alerte enlèvement from the provided link with written law. So I suppose this is a little bit different meaning from what is written as translation – according to Google it is more regarding alert abduction and attack. It was filled in the file from Orange delegate in 3GPP CT1, so I suppose more explanation from her will follow. If there is Ecrit expert speaking French, he can also help.
The list is present already – done with help of 3GPP CT1 delegates from the respective countries, but only some countries in Europe present there. It is seen from the list that consolidation between different countries is not so simple and it cannot be done without reading the law of the respective country on the respective language.
I consider talking with regulator not so easy – it has to be done via the official channels. I expect the regulator, when wants to start a new service, to have a meeting with all the operators present in one country and to discuss the details about. On such meeting every operator can state its opinion and discuss the requirements and possibilities. The requirements for the solution will be finalised and then the regulator can publish the respective law. Gathering such meeting is not in mine authorities. The result of talking only with some of the attending parties in process will be only speculation regarding a future decision. I am also not sure if this is the process in every country.
That is why 3GPP CT1 tried to register country specific emergency URN as a simple solution for countries where the emergency services are different from the common ones.

Best regards,

Vasil


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