Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs

[Henning Schulzrinne <[e-mail]>]

Christer,

The description tries to capture the nature of the service ("immediate
response"), not the legal status within a country. For example, it does not
opine on whether carriers are required, by law or regulation, to support
such a code, how such calls are charged, or whether the vehicle providing
the service is allowed to use flashing blue lights and sirens.

I'm confused as to why this discussion matters. Is there some reason any
legal distinctions need to be reflected in a protocol label? Do you have a
particular case in mind where this matters?

I think we are all trying to keep this relatively simple, so I think it
helps if we can focus on the technical issues.

Henning

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:28 AM, Christer Holmberg <
[e-mail]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> >Once again, the name has no significance as long as it is unique.  We use
> the names as suggestive for the service to aid the service providers,
> regulators and public safety authorities in setting up the systems, but the
> urn name is not used by anything other than computer software during an
> emergency.
> >
> >If one country has a service for an ambulance service that is considered
> an emergency service, but in another country it is not considered an
> emergency service, we can, and should still use the service in the sos tree
> for the non-emergency service.
>
> Section 4.2 of RFC 5031 says:
>
>    "The 'sos' service type describes emergency services requiring an
>    immediate response, typically offered by various branches of the
>    government or other public institutions."
>
>
> So, at least the ‘sos’ part of the name DOES have significance, doesn’t it?
>
> Regards,
>
> Christer
>
> On Jul 12, 2017, at 9:36 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Henning,
> I have looked at the list and noticed that you have also entered the other
> numbers for Austria, which are not emergency numbers. They shall not be
> under sos. This is what I see as other problem – there are services which
> you call for help - the respective service or vehicle is dispatched, but
> since they are not defined as emergency according to the law, they shall
> not be under sos domain.
> For Austria you can also see in the law document (https://www.bmvit.gv.at/
> telekommunikation/recht/aut/rtrverordnung/downloads/kem_vo/2009212.pdf )
> that the non-emergency services are:
>
> 130 Landeswarnzentralen (Country warning centre) – used in cases of
> storms, floods, different crisis, disaster control.
> 120, 123 Pannendienste – Roadside assistance.
> 1484-x Krankentransporte – ambulance services – only regional service.
> 116000 Hotline für vermiste Kinder – hotline for missinig children.
> 116111 Hotline für Hilfe suchender Kinder - hotline for searched (wanted)
> children.
> 116123 Hotline zur Lebenshilfe – hotline for support.
> 111 Telefonströrungsannahmestellen – Registering technical problems with
> telecommunication services.
> 118 Telefonauskunftsdienste – Telephone information services.
>
> Some of them can be registered under counselling. Obviously road
> assistance and disaster line are not counselling services  - they can be
> defined under new domain – for example help.road.
>
> Interesting is that 147 is emergency service, so it shall be sos.children,
> but 116000 shall be counselling.child.missing or help.child.missing. 116111
> – help.child.wanted, 116123 – counselling.life (combination of
> mental-health and suicide). 1484-x help.ambulance. 111 – help.telecom, 118 –
>  help.info.
>
> The number which you have entered in the table of your file 01/406 43 43
> and 0800/133133 are not present in the law document so they shall not at
> all be present in your file. The number starting with 01 is a normal number
> in Vienna, 0800 is a free phone service according to the law.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vasil
>
>
> *Von:* Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:[e-mail]
> <[e-mail]>]
> *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 12. Juli 2017 00:32
> *An:* Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail]
> *Betreff:* Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs
>
> Vasil,
>
> my apologies for missing the attachment. This is indeed quite helpful. I
> have started to collect those and some other numbers at
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/18t1siLVrPTwyYWUm8TQK7EnwC9Y4h
> wkYZmEa846Pzig/edit?usp=sharing
>
> I've "pencilled in" some tentative names in red mainly to make sure that
> there are no in-country duplications.
>
> There are a number of to-do countries, but so far, I've noticed a few that
> are likely to be easy (well-defined), with some tentative names:
>
> sos.child-protection (for emergency services that deal with child abuse)
> sos.child-missing (for missing or abducted children)
> sos.water (for water utility-related emergencies, similar to sos.gas)
> sos.electric (for electricity-related emergencies)
>
> No particular preference on whether to label the children-related ones
>
> sos.children.protection
> sos.children.missing
>
> I'll raise a few others separately to avoid mixing threads.
>
> Henning
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 9:43 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi Henning,
> I am sending the list attached. Sorry for not adding it in every email. It
> was present in the first mail that I have sent. It was prepared from 3GPP
> CT1 delegates as a list of emergency services in the respective countries
> according to current law – links to the law texts is also provided.
> Unfortunately we do not have more knowledge regarding other countries.
> I gave the example with 147 again regarding not typical emergency service
> making sure that there is common understanding. Only the local law has the
> authority to say what services are emergency and all parties involved shall
> take this for granted and treat every aspect of the service as emergency
> including the sos registration.
>
> I have tried to use google translate for the French document and it seems
> to be what you describe. But it is better somebody knowing French language
> to say more about it. Even if this service is activated under special
> circumstances it is still expected to have treatment as emergency call and
> it shall be under sos subspace.
>
> According to the current law if subscriber from Telekom Italia goes to
> Austria and taking in mind emergency numbers in Italy dials 113 (Police)
> from phone with IMS registration, such call shall be stopped since 113 is
> not existing number in Austria. Dialling the number is leading and dialling
> of not existing number cannot route the call to emergency service.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vasil
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Henning Schulzrinne [mailto:[e-mail]]
> *Gesendet:* Dienstag, 11. Juli 2017 13:33
> *An:* Aleksiev, Vasil <[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* [e-mail]
> *Betreff:* Re: [Ecrit] country specific emergency URNs
>
> You mention a list (or lists) that you and others have compiled. Can you
> point at it (or attach the documents or presentations) as I'm afraid I
> don't have a good place to look?
>
> One of the advantages that we have on this mailing list is that we can
> indeed draw on the expertise of a wide variety of international experts.
>
> I also don't understand your comment regarding 147. I thought we had
> agreed that if a service exists as an emergency service, it will be added
> as an SOS URN, even if there's already a counseling version that's somewhat
> similar. Again, the user expectation should guide this since the goal is to
> fall back to something that the user isn't (too) surprised by if the
> service does not exist.
>
> For France, the law seems to be at
> https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=
> JORFTEXT000030973250
>
> Interestingly, the link (via Google Translate) offers the following
> helpful advice:
>
> "Finally, without calling into question the need of the Ministry of the
> Interior, the majority of contributions reminds us of the inefficiency and
> the risk of confusion associated with the multiplication of emergency
> numbers. Some operators reiterate the request made by the French Telecom
> Federation during the previous consultation of a reflection on the
> rationalization of emergency numbers."
> >From what I can tell, 197 is a number that combines two services, namely
> for citizens calling in information about an attack or a child abduction.
> The number is only activated after an incident and is otherwise dormant. In
> the US, we call them "tip lines" (although they are used for crimes in
> general, not just the two special cases). See
> http://www.secourisme.net/spip.php?breve412&lang=fr
>
> Henning
>
> On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 4:35 AM, Aleksiev, Vasil <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hello,
> I do not agree with your interpretation of emergency services. In one
> country only the local authority can define what are the emergency
> services. Since there is law saying that 147 Telefonseelsorge is emergency
> service, it shall be treated as such. Regarding the vehicle with flashing
> lights dispatched – you cannot guarantee for that the respective operator
> on 147 will not send the police for example via its own channel if this is
> needed. So in my understanding the approach shall be based on local law.
> Regarding the benefits in routing of having all the emergency services in
> one country under sos subspace I have given examples already. In the file
> that I have send I have added only the emergency services for Austria with
> the respective link to the written law. The same is done from other 3GPP
> CT1 delegates who have given the info regarding the other countries in the
> file. Ecrit experts can check the links and read the respective law
> requirements written in the languages of the respective country.
> Regarding 197 service, the original name of the service of the name in
> French is: Alerte attentat – Alerte enlèvement from the provided link with
> written law. So I suppose this is a little bit different meaning from what
> is written as translation – according to Google it is more regarding alert
> abduction and attack. It was filled in the file from Orange delegate in
> 3GPP CT1, so I suppose more explanation from her will follow. If there is
> Ecrit expert speaking French, he can also help.
> The list is present already – done with help of 3GPP CT1 delegates from
> the respective countries, but only some countries in Europe present there.
> It is seen from the list that consolidation between different countries is
> not so simple and it cannot be done without reading the law of the
> respective country on the respective language.
> I consider talking with regulator not so easy – it has to be done via the
> official channels. I expect the regulator, when wants to start a new
> service, to have a meeting with all the operators present in one country
> and to discuss the details about. On such meeting every operator can state
> its opinion and discuss the requirements and possibilities. The
> requirements for the solution will be finalised and then the regulator can
> publish the respective law. Gathering such meeting is not in mine
> authorities. The result of talking only with some of the attending parties
> in process will be only speculation regarding a future decision. I am also
> not sure if this is the process in every country.
> That is why 3GPP CT1 tried to register country specific emergency URN as a
> simple solution for countries where the emergency services are different
> from the common ones.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Vasil
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________________________
> Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be
> privileged.
> If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender immediately,
> destroy all
> copies from your system and do not disclose or use the information for any
> purpose.
> Diese E-Mail inklusive aller Anhaenge ist vertraulich und koennte
> bevorrechtigtem
> Schutz unterliegen. Wenn Sie nicht der beabsichtigte Adressat sind,
> informieren Sie
> bitte den Absender unverzueglich, loeschen Sie alle Kopien von Ihrem
> System und
> veroeffentlichen Sie oder nutzen Sie die Information keinesfalls, gleich
> zu welchem Zweck.
>
> Think before you print!
>
> T-Mobile Austria GmbH
> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dr. Andreas Bierwirth (Vorsitzender), Aufsichtsrat:
> Dr. Rolf Nafziger (Vorsitzender)
> Firmenbuch: Handelsgericht Wien, Sitz Wien, FN 171112k, UID ATU 45011703,
> DVR 0898295
> Konto: UniCredit Bank Austria AG IBAN: AT93 1200 0528 4407 2301, BIC:
> BKAUATWW
>
> T-Mobile – Das verbindet uns.
> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________________________
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> ______________________________
> Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be
> privileged.
> If you are not the intended recipient, notify the sender immediately,
> destroy all
> copies from your system and do not disclose or use the information for any
> purpose.
> Diese E-Mail inklusive aller Anhaenge ist vertraulich und koennte
> bevorrechtigtem
> Schutz unterliegen. Wenn Sie nicht der beabsichtigte Adressat sind,
> informieren Sie
> bitte den Absender unverzueglich, loeschen Sie alle Kopien von Ihrem
> System und
> veroeffentlichen Sie oder nutzen Sie die Information keinesfalls, gleich
> zu welchem Zweck.
>
> Think before you print!
>
> T-Mobile Austria GmbH
> Geschaeftsfuehrung: Dr. Andreas Bierwirth (Vorsitzender), Aufsichtsrat:
> Dr. Rolf Nafziger (Vorsitzender)
> Firmenbuch: Handelsgericht Wien, Sitz Wien, FN 171112k, UID ATU 45011703,
> DVR 0898295
> Konto: UniCredit Bank Austria AG IBAN: AT93 1200 0528 4407 2301, BIC:
> BKAUATWW
>
> T-Mobile – Das verbindet uns.
> __________________________________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ecrit mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ecrit
>
>