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Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt)

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Sun, 26 June 2022 22:04 UTC

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Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2022 10:04:20 +1200
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To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>
References: <162444929705.22096.2956472779291079641@ietfa.amsl.com> <ED2832A3-F392-4F7F-8483-071140AB8FF6@eggert.org> <07736465-1FEB-4419-B6F5-B18ABB23865C@eggert.org> <CAChr6SzvXDxzi49ZG3oCJGVDh03iSOMgVVqj4EaOUM9TsJxFgQ@mail.gmail.com> <cfac3427-510b-fcf0-fdce-e1b3b7908a52@network-heretics.com> <bbafcb27-cf1d-665b-785c-137d4d20e2a9@cs.tcd.ie> <b5180ca1-f7a6-edfb-2ac6-31fe64ed88c1@lear.ch> <fe5062c6-0d70-1f03-9773-34e67c2b5e09@network-heretics.com> <CALaySJ+EofzQJFMqDhB_pYFoPXevjx_0+PKpQr+cyjhfTCX8-w@mail.gmail.com> <8cc9ff59-a07d-e34d-fd60-265ebb3560fd@network-heretics.com> <CABcZeBOJNtLqVC2+j=V8XKZtYmxmgnLmhSGhA-2BuKFzLzUE9Q@mail.gmail.com> <4da0a6f9-83ba-4c2a-2f02-0a7a5dcb627e@joelhalpern.com> <CABcZeBOW4DUp0OLkPbGpCVqf=Vz8FFTeT=A-c02isEHh1K9MVA@mail.gmail.com> <47a993e3-0d9b-9afa-2656-f7ea9d1b0bff@network-heretics.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/LtLZCPMbGDKx4G8X5JyVc6JEafY>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updating the IETF Discussion List Charter (was: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-eggert-bcp45bis-02.txt)
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Keith,

On 27-Jun-22 09:18, Keith Moore wrote:
> On 6/26/22 17:12, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
>>     I would phrase it  a little differently.   If you use a working template using a preparation form you are comfortable with, it works pretty well.  Yes, there are some hoops to jump through.  For example, we need the copyright grant.
>>
>> I think this is generally accurate.
>>
>> Having written a number of drafts with xml2rfc and with kramdown->xml2rfc my experience is that xml2rfc has a number of mystery failure modes which are hard to diagnose. It's a lot easier to get into those states editing the xml directly because kramdown generally generates correct XML. However, if you do manage to get into such a state with kramdown it can be very hard to figure out what's going on!
> 
> Is there a way to skip xml2rfc entirely?  IMO that's the biggest part of the problem.   I can accept the utility of XML for an RFC that needs to be maintained for a long time, but I'm not at all sure it's worth the trouble for a -00 Internet-Draft.   Maybe the right time to move to XML is when an author or WG is ready to submit to IESG.

That's exactly where kramdown fits in. There will be an XML file, but it is automatically generated and you never need to look inside it. I'm no expert, I've only done a handful of drafts in kramdown, but it's clearly more approachable than raw XML, or even nroff.

(I have to say that there are corner cases where you *do* need to look at the XML, but I think those will get less as time goes on.)

Have you tried authoring in an ACM or IEEE format recently? They are *seriously* harder to satisfy than the IETF, even if you are experienced in using LaTeX.

Regards
     Brian

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