Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief pondering)
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Thu, 16 April 2020 20:22 UTC
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To: John Wroclawski <jtw@csail.mit.edu>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief pondering)
Message-ID: <e73c1cd0-15f3-8246-0516-da30aae76362@huitema.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 13:22:34 -0700
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On 4/16/2020 10:11 AM, John Wroclawski wrote: >> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:56 AM, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >>> Il 16/04/2020 09:18 Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> ha scritto: >>> It's not clear that any of these tracker proposals actually harm privacy. Certainly the government in most places can get this data from phone companies and correlate it themselves. >> No, because covid19-oriented contact tracing requires much more precision than what can be provided by any location data that the operators can trace through their cellular networks; location data are unsuitable to determine a one-time contact with accuracy […] (the other reason is that this approach allows you to trace contacts even if the cellular and/or GPS connectivity is unavailable, > Yes, exactly. The other interesting thing about the BTLE protocols being proposed is that they’re being designed to report that you came into close proximity to a person of interest, but not (depending on details) where, exactly when, etc. This, plus requiring you to explicitly release your tracking information, is the sense in which they’re “privacy preserving” - implementing minimum semantics needed for this specific purpose and no more. Most of the anonymization schemes presented in the past ended up broken. I understand that people at MIT, Apple, Google and other places are trying real hard to prevent that, but history is not on their side. I can easily imagine correlation with adtech surveillance, beacons in physical places, cameras and face tracking, fingerprinting of Bluetooth radios, etc. Surveillance capitalism is almost guaranteed to invest there. > > Of course, one could always cross-correlate with other information (eg, cell-tower-trianguation-level location tracking) to peel some of this back. But if you’re worried about that, the next observation is that the BTLE protocols work even if your LTE radio is turned off - they remember things for later. So you can, at least conceptually, carry your phone with the wide area radio off when you want to, and still learn retrospectively that you were in proximity to a contact. And here comes the slippery slope. The efficiency of this reporting varies as the square of the penetration. There will be a huge incentive for authorities to increase that efficiency and make installation mandatory. That means mandating carrying your phone with Bluetooth turned on. See previous point about surveillance capitalism. Then mix that with an alliance between states and corporations. Am I the only one getting anxious there? -- Christian Huitema
- Re: a brief pondering Livingood, Jason
- a brief pondering Eliot Lear
- Re: a brief pondering Narelle Clark
- Re: a brief pondering Carsten Bormann
- Re: a brief pondering Michael Tuexen
- Re: a brief pondering Nick Hilliard
- Re: a brief pondering Carsten Bormann
- Re: a brief pondering Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: a brief pondering Michael Tuexen
- Re: a brief pondering Adam Roach
- Re: a brief pondering Adam Roach
- WebRTC (Re: a brief pondering) Harald Alvestrand
- Re: a brief pondering Michael Richardson
- Re: a brief pondering Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: a brief pondering Narelle Clark
- Re: a brief pondering Toerless Eckert
- Re: a brief pondering Nick Hilliard
- Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re: a … Carsten Bormann
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Carsten Bormann
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Philipp Hancke
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Cullen Jennings
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Bob Hinden
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Harald Alvestrand
- RE: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Larry Masinter
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Keith Moore
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Michael Richardson
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Eric Rescorla
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Christer Holmberg
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Nico Williams
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Cullen Jennings
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Mary B
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Christer Holmberg
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Harald Alvestrand
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Christer Holmberg
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Simon Pietro Romano
- Re: Off-topic: making WebRTC work in practice (Re… Toerless Eckert
- Implementation requirement (Re: Off-topic: making… Harald Alvestrand
- COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief pondering) Benoit Claise
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Carsten Bormann
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Keith Moore
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… John Wroclawski
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Bob Hinden
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Dirk-Willem van Gulik
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Keith Moore
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Joel M. Halpern
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Eric Vyncke (evyncke)
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… John Wroclawski
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Keith Moore
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… John Wroclawski
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Rob Sayre
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Fred Baker
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Keith Moore
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… John Wroclawski
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Christian Huitema
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Robert Raszuk
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Rob Sayre
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Harish Pillay
- RE: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Andrew Campling
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Christian
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Rich Kulawiec
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: COVID-19 contacts tracker (Re: a brief ponder… Christian
- Re: WebRTC (Re: a brief pondering) Cullen Jennings