Re: Tolerance

[Keith Moore <[e-mail]>]

On 7/17/19 10:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 17-Jul-19 21:55, Carsten Bormann wrote:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 09:43, Nick Hilliard <[e-mail]> wrote:
>>> I know of many people in the operational community who either don't contribute or who no longer contribute to IETF discussions because of perceived hostility.
>> Is that because of perceived hostility in tone or maybe because of perceived hostility towards their ideas (i.e., IETF is going to ignore their points anyway)?
> I'm sure there's both, but although both are important, I think the second one is much more profoundly worrying.
[Side note]  In practice, I suspect it's difficult to reliably tell the 
difference.   Sometimes people blame a speaker for his/her "tone" when 
in fact what that speaker is doing is attempting to make a clear (if 
unsettling) technical statement.

> When people actually trying to run networks based on IETF specifications tell us that a proposed specification will cause significant operational issues, we are very foolish (dare I say stupid?) if we don't listen. However, experience shows that this doesn't come cheap. The operations people, who are typically under a great deal of pressure in their day jobs, don't want to spend half their working hours explaining the real world to people that they think are living in a theoretical world. The designers have to be willing to listen, and to consider that their theory may be wrong or impractical. Worse, they may have to abandon their brilliant idea and tell their bosses that they were wrong.
>
> This isn't imaginary. I've been there, done that, more than once. And it's a good thing. I'm very grateful to ops people who've improved, or shot down, some of my past work. But we need more of this, not less, and it takes a lot of people's time.
>
> Being polite and tolerant with each other is only part of it.*/The other part is listening to what's being said./*

Entirely agree.    (and with emphasis added)

I would further assert that the duty to listen  - actively, and with an 
open mind - is at least as important as the speaker's duty to speak 
clearly and effectively.

Keith