RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
"Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com> Wed, 30 March 2016 19:37 UTC
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From: "Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)" <keith.drage@nokia.com>
To: EXT Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
Thread-Topic: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words]
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Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:37:29 +0000
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Cc: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>, "Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)" <rse@rfc-editor.org>, "rtcweb@ietf.org" <rtcweb@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
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Irrespective of the rest of this discussion, a reviewer should always address every upper and lower case usage of such verbs and ensure they are appropriate, because that is the place most mistakes are made in being absolutely precise as to meaning. Keith From: rtcweb [mailto:rtcweb-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of EXT Dave Cridland Sent: 30 March 2016 08:25 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: IETF discussion list; Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor); rtcweb@ietf.org; IESG; John C Klensin; Barry Leiba; Scott O. Bradner Subject: Re: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 words] On 30 March 2016 at 00:46, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote: On 30/03/2016 05:34, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 08:58 +1300 Brian E Carpenter > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote: > >> ... >> The other words (must, shall, required, not) mean what they >> always mean. The only argument for upper-casing them is >> aesthetic symmetry. If a spec uses alternatives like >> mandatory, necessary or forbidden, they are just as powerful. >> ... > > Actually, when 2119 is referenced, Section 6 attaches particular > interoperability semantics to MUST, SHALL, etc., that are not > part of the plain-English meaning of those words. Section 6 > seems to be ignored most of the time but cited when it supports > an axe someone wants to grind about use of conformance language. My claim is that even section 6 does *not* change the meanings of the categorical words in a spec. If it says that something must or must not happen, either the statement is redundant or it is essential for interoperability, whether it's written in upper case Courier New or in runes. I should think you must realise that shall not always be the case. But it doesn't matter. It's the SHOULDs and MAYs that require precision in their use. Brian
- Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Leslie
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC2119 w… Brian E Carpenter
- RE: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eric Gray
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Barry Leiba
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John Levine
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words David Farmer
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dick Franks
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words S Moonesamy
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Tony Finch
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Loa Andersson
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Randy Bush
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Ben Campbell
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Heather Flanagan (RFC Series Editor)
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… HANSEN, TONY L
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… John C Klensin
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Eliot Lear
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Scott O. Bradner
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Dave Cridland
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Eliot Lear
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ben Campbell
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Warren Kumari
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Adam Roach
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Crocker
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words John C Klensin
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Pat Thaler
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Ole Jacobsen
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Barry Leiba
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Stephan Wenger
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Dave Cridland
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Mark Andrews
- RE: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- RE: [rtcweb] Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question … Drage, Keith (Nokia - GB)
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words tom p.
- Re: [rtcweb] Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Lee Howard
- Re: Fuzzy words [was Uppercase question for RFC21… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Uppercase question for RFC2119 words Francis Dupont