Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT)

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Mon, 09 September 2019 03:50 UTC

Return-Path: <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B88F120073; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.998
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r2ZhHZqiX_Ec; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-pg1-x541.google.com (mail-pg1-x541.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::541]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB7CB120047; Sun, 8 Sep 2019 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-pg1-x541.google.com with SMTP id 4so6972570pgm.12; Sun, 08 Sep 2019 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=i8I7B4lG7aXUNX6Ryk79SkMvJfXsKKS1ykEEY/ziRq8=; b=IHQaMgbkyBk9mX26fSSC5ab1xiKgrOch2ShFRCLCjcrBWa3p22EijMyebIGN4tyi1B dBsFDYeKs4AwfbArng4b5KfqsXbwrufJT4R5FacJBCi4r+evjhrJN6Z1U9NY0Ku5Wksp yWZpJboAhotykomCdW8ZUMi8/EX9YcLw3bl8zQ9LZJ8UKSXM4T6grQKuKemOUMrI54n0 T2T/nszxQxop8mz8Zy6vf19nUi67e0Ef4ofL/OTjI49VwyKE1HQxdbJtJRHM08Wc1UAS MWlyltnJ1EiinNy25VZqPUeowGPGATthLY48eOH+ubReYxPJ/WtG3L0Q0OGuSloX1Ksd oXgQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=i8I7B4lG7aXUNX6Ryk79SkMvJfXsKKS1ykEEY/ziRq8=; b=fQvJt7cGt/E05P/FM63C8jo7XkFzmVBQE0BeoabsHbhvfS3PprTC97lENV1OpxWBt8 rN5BWEPbT2SUjraxkc1mvz3yWJ5ajP7lzZuXGqb4Ceg9po0gnWe+VFxbT8Ac+FM1h8oe M3Pm34JFz1LA+BSiw1iVXeUJbdTTTS3XI1aqc7ZnnrJWO0Tox3iV43kZTJcH8kt31RvH eEfZCIt614QbjOxbak/uBJDOmTQI2YUN0UDGgy8H1c8JIo9UPegV/HWsx1dqU2taKU3n YbUBWKxMdDyiOzFN+7X6PBVoLSMMdsSdIplrUVIxQiZ2o/aTnzbWoc2HDRq6BhHk6nM7 pzZA==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWcykaTSa8XN1lpr7Y2eawDvZuAfIhHmTnihzqx+n8dZnrxfXEJ xc6fMyKKuUGNS6XOklCzzyrpxZ9I
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx/H2bTEkGF12t6f/yxCsj3K8dXSeM1MohK4yec+ZOmnd/K2QM2wkXn6kvfsGvdWXtZyTrKWw==
X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d598:: with SMTP id v24mr23496334pju.8.1568001024026; Sun, 08 Sep 2019 20:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.178.30] (82.206.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.206.82]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s97sm9555999pjc.4.2019.09.08.20.50.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 08 Sep 2019 20:50:23 -0700 (PDT)
To: Joe Touch <touch@strayalpha.com>
Cc: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>
References: <156751558566.9632.10416223948753711891.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <efabc7c9f72c4cd9a31f56de24669640@boeing.com> <9331E721-F7F8-4C22-9BE4-E266726B3702@gmail.com> <7bfbaf5fa12c4a9bac3e46ece5dfdcde@boeing.com> <0BF34BFA-5F30-4EE1-9F5E-18D9ECA8D424@gmail.com> <CALx6S37xhhS5ezhJu6-HQmftwY9cBzuCxeaW9thTbKBa2hizcw@mail.gmail.com> <A8A10E03-6EEC-4F60-A213-7D66084BA754@gmail.com> <09d0dc428430407f8154f40d47a417dc@boeing.com> <67823455-8FCB-4C9E-8B78-41F2E99BDC21@employees.org> <1f5edd49236649929599820764dedb4e@boeing.com> <D80F747F-6F23-45C9-AE8B-5C059C5AC8DE@employees.org> <47aafc6dbef24b2ba76b81f95dbbedcb@boeing.com> <4461d66b-797c-4a14-b721-b6089221f1e1@si6networks.com> <CALx6S34hZX+OdT5yyw3Jh-iHZ3mRNsFuHXsaZnpZHevGaGifrg@mail.gmail.com> <86BA423E-AB96-44E1-9D3D-A792450F8563@gmail.com> <B0DA91E4-867A-424E-BB70-D1C5DF939AAE@strayalpha.com> <f8b2e7e6-e73b-bf90-6fe5-fe18e5a206f0@gmail.com> <3F248D34-9A3D-44AB-811D-CA025D15B818@strayalpha.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3450c11e-9127-edf1-f889-11fc61dab1de@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2019 15:50:19 +1200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <3F248D34-9A3D-44AB-811D-CA025D15B818@strayalpha.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/CHM3CgpOIj5nOi0r10VVai5WMgI>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-16: (with COMMENT)
X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List <int-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/int-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2019 03:50:27 -0000

On 09-Sep-19 12:15, Joe Touch wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 8, 2019, at 1:26 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Wouldn't that require the middle box to become an architectural element?
>>>
>>> Yes, but not just “an” (one):
>>>
>>> Touch, J: Middlebox Models Compatible with the Internet. USC/ISI (ISI-TR-711), 2016. (Type: Technical Report | Links | BibTeX)
>>>
>>>  * https://www.strayalpha.com/pubs/isi-tr-711.pdf
>>
>> I'll take the liberty of pointing out that we've known for many years that
>> there are multiple types of middleboxes and they have multiple facets:
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3234
> 
> Facets are just properties. That doc makes no attempt to describe them as architectural roles.

Agreed. My point is that the issue has been lying on the IETF table for many years, and we've collectively chosen to ignore it.
 
>>
>> So far, we haven't added them to any formal architectural description of
>> the Internet, probably because we don't have one.
> 
> RFC1122, RFC1123, RFC1812 as standards.
> 
> I (and IMO those RFCs) disagree with the position you took in RFC1958, FWIW.

"you" = the IAB in 1996; I was only the document editor. But IMHO those RFCs are not architectural as such. They describe functions of nodes, not how the nodes work together as a system.

    Brian

> 
> Joe
> 
>