Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Thu, 05 September 2019 22:52 UTC
Return-Path: <warren@kumari.net>
X-Original-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: int-area@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 365DE12004E for <int-area@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WQHBVbC7WH0M for <int-area@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-qk1-x736.google.com (mail-qk1-x736.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::736]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E9731200D5 for <int-area@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Sep 2019 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-qk1-x736.google.com with SMTP id q203so3887316qke.1 for <int-area@ietf.org>; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TDKL1M7zw75v8p6pCFVn9z5nV3gLMY7c+ayaLNsguDk=; b=l4juykc0fz0w29TBp6Rnljhk8n8Cf5umvXgudBlDwXlQXh5HDdShpsKrCJlok2PQk3 kga9U9lcm2M7GsKBFyhOFp3rQ8XIc+z/t5E0glIatLQZy03S2/qCBVUpTWoASYGEjj4b lHp0rMej+yzWG18ho4LptSinPMDn6WmS824UGeH58TMDD9nYoCl+fd4EyGM64A9H2Y3V IWEABbvJly+vYp5MRimaGitLFvSgjYcR4lXlGRrMHZV6lA1XhiE24NChcMBDGkUt7UMZ sOsmO/jBUSpFsz8QdrEvqEs3QyiFCVgOtYrJV0vMKpqt9tTRruQv3VyICx1p7iBBYhXo bZsA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TDKL1M7zw75v8p6pCFVn9z5nV3gLMY7c+ayaLNsguDk=; b=bjX1vgKkY+O4odi7Fa9NmS9Mn812CfCmAvuSfnLi79opd6bN1tu/PiRglt2oJmIH0z D6hdGsaMjtWDSd3Br5aa0yxE+V2DnF/WNWngg3mH7cxdIFxmB8hammpUqKo+sVIPqIGn MU71l7b1SUvs1BMbX+td7W96CxbLNuDLjgsIhnkQhbvkHpNYYNQnuMM74YHj14kPkQ/I UzM99sD60XVHRfQxyCMxpZsHzKILrt3Ptxdh+RScKjP3k92a0ic1dPa1N89QMZ+rkxmG b9Cqn6fModVvGQiy0kb4FqiF+/PCZcOX9Exjh7UMlM+usQR85z4mlUQWdhJOmAxrmiMB qd/g==
X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUSVcyd0cXeqlhTIMIb6ZBwKBtByK7JG1g+iLJnLVbJ6VtPkSHF GV3Ex7vrE5EvchLPImiq4jpvY08V+4G5y6E0ePns8g==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz/zd21d9cdKFyTABkz909Y/C0u4h8RXMwbP8eJBCjMh7hIBnV06H/R78liTu7leOaPaVLwiNzUboSK32CMd84=
X-Received: by 2002:a37:4ccf:: with SMTP id z198mr5796247qka.245.1567723949737; Thu, 05 Sep 2019 15:52:29 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <efabc7c9f72c4cd9a31f56de24669640@boeing.com> <2EB90A57-9BBD-417C-AEDB-AFBFBB906956@gmail.com> <CAHw9_iKozCAC+8TGS0fSxVZ_3pJW7rnhoKy=Y3AxLqWEXvemcA@mail.gmail.com> <4C8FE1C4-0054-4DA1-BC6E-EBBE78695F1B@gmail.com> <CALx6S34e1X7y5koxmJXuOJKtJmeTHq2Q9FKX-71ZN=Q5LNBcWQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALx6S34e1X7y5koxmJXuOJKtJmeTHq2Q9FKX-71ZN=Q5LNBcWQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 18:51:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHw9_i+sMh6gg=52VGCop5z2=quMAUakadkC0ehAb5eFoNbeLg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com>
Cc: Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, "int-area@ietf.org" <int-area@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, Joel Halpern <joel.halpern@ericsson.com>, "draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile@ietf.org>, Suresh Krishnan <suresh@kaloom.com>, "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" <intarea-chairs@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/wGhKkDMoCeNWkmd2dwOhpd5gx-o>
Subject: Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile
X-BeenThere: int-area@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF Internet Area Mailing List <int-area.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/int-area/>
List-Post: <mailto:int-area@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area>, <mailto:int-area-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2019 22:52:35 -0000
On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 3:53 PM Tom Herbert <tom@herbertland.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 5, 2019 at 11:29 AM Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Based on the discussion, I would like to propose to see if this will resolve the issues raised. It attempts to cover the issues raised. > > > > The full section 6.1 is included below, but only the last sentence in the second paragraph changed. > > > > Please review and comment. > > > > Thanks, > > Bob > > > > > > > > 6.1. For Application and Protocol Developers > > > > Developers SHOULD NOT develop new protocols or applications that rely > > on IP fragmentation. When a new protocol or application is deployed > > in an environment that does not fully support IP fragmentation, it > > SHOULD operate correctly, either in its default configuration or in a > > specified alternative configuration. > > > > While there may be controlled environments where IP fragmentation > > works reliably, this is a deployment issue and can not be known to > > someone developing a new protocol or application. It is not > > recommended that new protocols or applications be developed that rely > > on IP fragmentation. Protocols and applications that rely on IP > > fragmentation will work less reliably on the Internet unless they > > also include mechanisms to detect that IP fragmentation isn't working > > reliably. > > > > Legacy protocols that depend upon IP fragmentation SHOULD be updated > > to break that dependency. However, in some cases, there may be no > > viable alternative to IP fragmentation (e.g., IPSEC tunnel mode, IP- > > in-IP encapsulation). In these cases, the protocol will continue to > > rely on IP fragmentation but should only be used in environments > > where IP fragmentation is known to be supported. > > > Bob, > > These two paragraphs seem somewhat contradicatory. For new protocols > the recommendation is not to use fragmentation because we can't know > whether the deployment allows that, but for legacy protocols we're > allowed to use fragmentation if we know the deployment allows that. > > I think it's a lot simpler to just say that if you know fragmentation > works in your environment or to some destination then you can use it, > if not then you'll need to do something else. <no hats> Advice like this always feels like a cop-out to me[0]. Let's say that I do (somehow) know that fragmentation works in my environment -- where is the knob that I turn in [ Linux | OS X | iOS | Android | Windows | IOS | JunOS | <etc> ] which says "These set of prefixes are within my environment and you can fragment when sending to them?" And how do I also configure <insert long list of protocols> to also know this? It is a *very* small number of cases where my environment is sufficiently well defined, homogeneous, and not connected to the Internet that "environment" can be properly defined, *and* where all nodes know that they are part of it -- off the top if my head, DTN is the only example that comes to mind... The "you can do xxx in your environment" usually feels like / results in: a: "I'm tired of fighting, go do whatever you want" b: weasel words which later get abuse to justify incorrect behavior c: additional complexity or d: all of the above. What we've built is an Internet -- protocols should "just work", not only work in specific parts of it, especially if there isn't an obvious border (e.g: L2 domain, OSPF domain, etc) W [0]: An exception to this is the standard boilerplate which BMWG attaches to its drafts, which goes along the lines of: " Benchmarking activities as described in this memo are limited to technology characterization using controlled stimuli in a laboratory environment, with dedicated address space and the constraints specified in the sections above. The benchmarking network topology will be an independent test setup and MUST NOT be connected to devices that may forward the test traffic into a production network or misroute traffic to the test management network. Further, benchmarking is performed on a "black-box" basis, relying solely on measurements observable external to the DUT or System Under Test (SUT). Special capabilities SHOULD NOT exist in the DUT/SUT specifically for benchmarking purposes. Any implications for network security arising from the DUT/SUT SHOULD be identical in the lab and in production networks." > This applies equally to > legacy protocols and new protocols, on the open Internet as well as > limited domains. For that matter the rule applies pretty much to any > protocol that might be considered "fragile" (note, this might just be > a rewording of Joe's proposed text). > > Tom > > > > > Protocols may be able to avoid IP fragmentation by using a > > sufficiently small MTU (e.g. The protocol minimum link MTU), > > disabling IP fragmentation, and ensuring that the transport protocol > > in use adapts its segment size to the MTU. Other protocols may > > deploy a sufficiently reliable PMTU discovery mechanism > > (e.g.,PLMPTUD). > > > > UDP applications SHOULD abide by the recommendations stated in > > Section 3.2 of [RFC8085]. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Int-area mailing list > > Int-area@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area > -- I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad idea in the first place. This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair of pants. ---maf
- [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on draft-… Alissa Cooper via Datatracker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Black, David
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Warren Kumari
- [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in draft-… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Tom Herbert
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Geoff Huston
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ron Bonica
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Ole Troan
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Joe Touch
- Re: [Int-area] Discussion about Section 6.1 in dr… Fred Baker