Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re: Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags

"Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com> Fri, 02 August 2019 06:48 UTC

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From: "Frank Brockners (fbrockne)" <fbrockne@cisco.com>
To: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>
CC: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>, IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>, IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re: Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2019 06:47:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re: Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>
> Sent: Freitag, 2. August 2019 00:27
> To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
> Cc: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>; IPPM Chairs <ippm-
> chairs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re:
> Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
> 
> On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:12 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Greg,
> >
> >
> >
> > Please see inline…
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Donnerstag, 1. August 2019 20:54
> > To: Frank Brockners (fbrockne) <fbrockne@cisco.com>
> > Cc: Tom Herbert <tom@quantonium.net>; IPPM Chairs
> > <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> > Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
> > Re: Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Frank,
> >
> > thank you for your expedient response and the clarification, much
> appreciated. I have some follow-up questions but your response, in my opinion,
> supports my original evaluation of the draft that it is not ready for WG adoption.
> I don't agree that the presumed benefits of the proposed Loopback flag
> outweigh risks that were called out during the meeting and were pointed by Tom
> and me.
> >
> > Also, thank you for informing everyone that a design team is forming to define
> the use of the Immediate flag. I think that that flag should be introduced along
> with the clear and firm specification of its utilization.
> >
> > And I'm still not clear about how the Active flag can be used. You suggest that
> it is intended as complementary to "an operator who uses his own probing".
> What such "own probing" could be? Why would the operator use well-known
> standard-based active OAM for fault management and performance
> monitoring?
> >
> >
> >
> > …FB: draft-lapukhov-dataplane-probe-01 is an example of an operator’s
> approach to probing. I’ve also seen deployments where the probing is integrated
> with the application – i.e. part of the application solution, which is another
> example domain where specific health checks are used.
> >
> >
> >
> > And, going back to the scenario in DC. I wonder why the well-known
> Traceroute is not sufficient?
> >
> >
> >
> > …FB: In the scenario discussed below, detection speed was the driving factor –
> the IOAM loopback solution gives you an indication of the failed link in less than
> 1 RTT.
> 
> Frank,
> 
> I'm doubtful it would be practical to set loopback on every packet given the
> amplification characteristic, which means that either it's done as a periodic
> probe or on demand when the application has reason to suspect a failing link. In
> either case, it seems like the latency to detect and identify a failing link would be
> greater than 1 RTT. Am I missing something?

Tom,

you would not set loopback on every packet. Let me re-explain the deployment scenario:

* Operator runs a custom application UDP probe - which makes probe traffic follow all paths the application uses.
* On detecting failure of a specific probe for a specific connection, IOAM tracing is turned on with loopback for *that* connection.
* Once IOAM tracing is turned on, you can detect the node/link where traffic is stuck within one RTT. I.e. identification can be done in 1 RTT, once you detected the failure.

So in other words, you only need the IOAM trace option with loopback added to a very small set of packets. In an ideal world even one packet would be sufficient.

Frank

> 
> Tom
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers, Frank
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Greg
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 1, 2019 at 12:32 PM Frank Brockners (fbrockne)
> <fbrockne@cisco.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Some additional notes on the different flags - restating and expanding the
> discussion we had at the WG meeting in Montreal:
> >
> > Loopback flag:
> > The loopback flag was inspired by a specific use case, which could be
> summarized as "rapid identification of a failed link/node in a DC": In a DC (read:
> controlled/specific domain), one runs UDP probes (draft-lapukhov-dataplane-
> probe-01) over a v6 fabric. In case a UDP probe detects a failure, one adds the
> IOAM trace option and enables loopback mode - i.e. every node sends a copy
> back to the source in addition to forwarding the packet. Correlating the
> information from both ends allows one to pinpoint the failed node/link rapidly
> and gives one a view of the overall forwarding topology. This use-case was
> implemented in FD.io/VPP roughly 2 years ago and was also showcased at IETF
> bits-n-bites. There is a rough outline of the open source implementation
> available here: https://jira.fd.io/browse/VPP-471 .
> > In more generic words: Loopback mode is like all IOAM, a domain specific
> feature. Loopback mode is to enrich an existing (here the dataplane-probe)
> active OAM mechanism.
> > Reading through the comments below, it proves that the current draft is
> indeed a good basis for the discussion and it also clearly shows that we need to
> add a section to the document that expands on how loopback mode is expected
> to be used.
> >
> > Immediate export flag:
> > Per the WG discussion in Montreal - and the follow up breakout meeting
> (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ippm/Do9kJ9ED_grmTqwcZHSdpy3CmRk
> ):
> > The plan is to consolidate the IOAM-related content for a new "immediate
> export option" from draft-song-ippm-postcard-based-telemetry-04 and the
> description of the immediate export flag in draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags  into a
> new draft.
> >
> > Active flag:
> > The active flag is not to replace any existing active OAM mechanisms - but
> rather allow an operator who uses his own probing along with IOAM to flag a
> packet as a probe packet.
> >
> > Security considerations for flags in the context of PNF vs. VNF:
> > Thanks for raising the point. It would be great to see specifics/details
> discussed here on the list, so that those could be incorporated into the security
> section.
> >
> > Thanks, Frank
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ippm <ippm-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Tom Herbert
> > > Sent: Donnerstag, 1. August 2019 00:41
> > > To: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> > > Cc: IPPM Chairs <ippm-chairs@ietf.org>; IETF IPPM WG <ippm@ietf.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [ippm] Adoption call for draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags Re:
> > > Regarding draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 11:53 AM Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Authors,
> > > > thank you for bringing this proposal for the discussion. When
> > > > considering WG
> > > AP, I use the following criteria:
> > > >
> > > > is the document reasonably well-written; does it addresses a
> > > > practical problem; is the proposed solution viable?
> > > >
> > > > On the first point, I commend you - the draft is easy to read.
> > > > On the second point, I have several questions:
> > > >
> > > > What is the benefit of using Loopback flag in the Trace mode?
> > >
> > > This is unclear to me also. Additionally, I am concerned that
> > > protocol blindly reflects the packet back to the source without any
> > > regard to what else the packet contains. For instance, if a TCP
> > > packet is reflected by ten intermediate nodes this is nonsensical.
> > > The possibility of an amplification attack is obvious and in fact
> > > mentioned in the security section, however I'm skeptical that the proposed
> mitigation of rate limiting is sufficient.
> > >
> > > Minimally, it seems like the reflected packets should be wrapped in
> > > ICMP to mitigate spoofing attacks. Also, I wonder if traceroute
> > > methodology could be used for tracing, i.e. one sent packet results
> > > in at most one return packet (ICMP), to mitigate the amplification problem.
> > >
> > > Tom
> > >
> > > > Why is it important to limit the applicability of Loopback to only Trace
> mode?
> > > > What is the benefit of collecting the same, as I understand the
> > > > description,
> > > data on the return path to the source?
> > > > What is the benefit of using Active flag comparing to existing
> > > > active OAM
> > > protocols?
> > > > What is the benefit of using Immediate flag comparing to
> > > > Postcard-Based
> > > Telemetry (PBT) proposal?
> > > >
> > > > On the third point, I'd appreciate your clarification on these points:
> > > >
> > > > In which transports (I find that iOAM encapsulation has been
> > > > proposed for all
> > > known transports) you've envisioned to use Loopback flag?
> > > > The third bullet in Section 5 refers to a replica of the data
> > > > packet that follows
> > > the same path as the original packet. What controls that replication?
> > > > The last paragraph in the Security Consideration section relies on
> > > > "restricted
> > > administrative domain" to mitigate the threat of malicious attacks
> > > using a combination of iOAM extensions. That might be the case when
> > > operating in a PNF environment, but it is much more challenging to
> > > maintain such a trusted domain in VNF environment. How can these new
> > > security risks be mitigated in a VNF environment?
> > > >
> > > > Appreciate your consideration and clarifications to my questions.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Greg
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 2:07 PM Brian Trammell (IETF)
> > > > <ietf@trammell.ch>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> hi Greg,
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks for the feedback; absolutely, we can do this the normal way.
> Authors:
> > > let's do a normal two-week adoption call for this document before
> > > publishing the update.
> > > >>
> > > >> This adoption call starts now.
> > > >>
> > > >> IPPM, please respond to this message with an indication to the
> > > >> mailing list of
> > > your support for adopting draft-mizrahi-ippm-ioam-flags as a working
> > > group document, in partial fulfillment of our charter milestone
> > > "submit a Standards Track draft on inband OAM based measurement
> methodologies to the IESG"
> > > (obviously, depending on how many documents we end up sending to the
> > > IESG, we may have to change the plurality of this milestone). If you
> > > do not support this, please send a message to the list explaining why.
> > > >>
> > > >> Thanks, cheers,
> > > >>
> > > >> Brian (as IPPM co-chair)
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > On 25 Jul 2019, at 13:15, Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Dear Chairs, et al.,
> > > >> > I appreciate that editors of draft-ietf-ippm-ioam-data followed
> > > >> > on the
> > > decision of the WG reached at the meeting in Prague to extract
> > > material not directly related to the definition of iOAM data
> > > elements from the document. The new draft was presented earlier this
> > > week and generated many comments. I feel that it would be right to
> > > discuss the draft and its relevance to the charter of the IPPM WG before
> starting WG adoption poll.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Regards,
> > > >> > Greg
> > > >>
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > ippm mailing list
> > > > ippm@ietf.org
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > ippm@ietf.org
> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ippm