Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan
Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Wed, 15 January 2020 15:49 UTC
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From: Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 17:48:33 +0200
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To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
Cc: its <its@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan
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Thanks Alex, I will review again and reply as soon as possible, AB On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 5:41 PM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > For information and update. > > 1. Deadline: We do not know whether or not today is a deadline. The FCC > notice (attached) says the deadline is "30 days after date of > publication in the Federal Register" but we do not have that date of > publication in the Federal Register. For my part, I would like to keep > that day today January 15th, if possible. But an interested person of > help is influenced by a very real-world event in a city in danger, which > might delay his availability. > > The comment to submit at https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filings will be > structured around the following points: > > 2. on what channel or frequency band to run IPv6-over-802.11OCB > specified in RFC8691? It is not clear from the FCC Notice whether or > not in the future the implementations of RFC8691 are allowed to exist, > because of two difficulties: > 2.1. in the past, it was often suggested by FCC and independent > commenters that IPv6 should not be put on the 'Control' channel. The > Control channel is known to be 5885-5895MHz in America and 5895-5905MHz > in Europe. > 2.1.1 Considering the American interpretation of the term 'Control > channel' (5885-5895MHz), and the future allocation of 5885-5895MHz to > WiFi, and considering that by that WiFi the FCC Notice assumes to be > "802.11 with BSSID" (as opposed to '802.11-OCB - Outside the Context of > a BSSID'), it is clear that RFC 8691 "IPv6 over OCB" can not be run on > the Control channel - even less in the future than in the past. > 2.1.2 Considering the EU interpretation of the 'Control channel' > (5895-5905MHz): this channel would be allocated by FCC still to DSRC in > the future. It would be the only channel in which DSRC is allowed. For > this channel, the FCC Notice at page 40 refers clearly to IEEE > 802.11p-2010 (and not to 802.11-2016 which covers both OCB and > 'with-BSSID'). Is RFC8691 IPv6-over-OCB allowed on the channel > 5895-5905MHz? (called 'Control channel' in Europe). > > 3. with respect to this comment seek in the FCC Notice: "11. We propose > to create sub-bands within the 5.9 GHz band to allow unlicensed > operations to operate in the lower 45 megahertz of the band (5.850-5.895 > GHz) and reserve the upper 30 megahertz of the band (5.895-5.925 GHz) > for ITS. We seek comment on this proposal" > > This is my comment: you seem to need a 45 MHz band from the 5.9GHz > domain in order to stick close to another WiFi band such as to allow the > codecs to do more bandwidth. An alternative is the following: find > another place for that 45MHz (not at 5.9GHz). Invent a new technique of > creating a wide band by virtually sticking two disparate bands from > largely different domains: take one 20MHz band from WiFi 5GHz and > another, e.g. 100MHz, from a 70GHz domain, for example. The continuity > of band is an artificial requirement. Just as artificial limits existed > in the max file length on FAT16 at 2Gbyte (if I recollect correctly the > numbers). > > 4. "we seek comment on the state of DSRC-based deployment". > This is my comment: there are very many RSUs installed in Europe and > very few people who use them. There are many individual demonstrators > in cars. There are no smartphones with DSRC capability. There are some > encouraging trials of IPv6-over-802.11-OCB RFC8691 including RSUs, > platoons and in laboratory. > > 5. "We seek comment on the transportation and vehicular-safety related > applications that are particularly suited for the 5.9 GHz band as > compared to other spectrum bands, and how various bands can be used > efficiently and effectively to provide these applications." > This is my comment: 5.9GHz is more straight, or line-of-sight if you > wish, than 3.5GHz or 2.4GHz; this means on one hand that it has a harder > time to get around the corners but, just because of that, it is better > suited for use with cheap simple reflectors. Whether that is good or > not of applications: there are many layers between PHY and APP. These > layers are what makes applications work ok on the right PHY. It is not > the 5.9GHz that is better adapted or less well adapted to a particular > app (safety). There are hugely safe apps that run on PHYs at very many > frequencies, from very low to very high. One should avoid a situation > that risks the solution proposed in the notice to not be adapted, and to > issue again the same problems later (i.e. use WiFi and C-V2X and still > not obtain safety; examples abound: cellular technologies are bringing > huge safety risks when applied like with Uber (sexism, wild parking, > drivers' rights), scooter accidents (reserved over cellular), double > Tesla accidents in just one last month, and more. > > more later. > > Alex > > > Le 08/01/2020 à 16:13, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > > For information and update, > > > > With Abdussalam we discussed in private: > > - potential implication of an ISOC representative in making a comment > > - the URL to file the comment is https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/filings > > - the potential comment is > > "what is the channel on which to use IPv6 (RFC8691 now)?" > > Because the FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking does not contain the > > word IPv6; and because often in the past FCC was not clear about > > allowing IPv6 on the 'control' channel 5895-5905MHz; this is > > potentially the only channel allowed for 802.11-OCB (aka DSRC) in the > > future - the rest of 5.9GHz channels would go to 802.11ax and to > > C-V2X. > > - the deadline for filing comments is January 15th (30 days from Dec. > > 17th). > > > > I am looking for interest in this. > > > > Alex > > > > Le 20/12/2019 à 13:04, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > >> Hi, IPWAVErs, > >> > >> I am interested in commenting on the FCC plan for 5.9GHz band, in > >> particular with respect to the channel(s) on which to use > >> IPv6-over-802.11-OCB. > >> > >> There seems to be a window of opportunity of 30 days from publishing > >> date of Dec. 17th. > >> > >> Is anybody planning to comment? Is someone part of a group that would > >> like to comment? > >> > >> (attached the FCC notice) > >> > >> Alex > >> > >> Le 18/12/2019 à 11:06, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 17/12/2019 à 16:23, Jérôme Härri a écrit : > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> > >>>> Sorry, wrong link..it was a presentation.. > >>>> > >>>> But here is the paper: > >>>> > >>>> > http://www.eurecom.fr/fr/publication/5191/detail/can-ieee-802-11p-and-wi-fi-coexist-in-the-5-9ghz-its-band > >>>> > >>> > >>> Jérôme, > >>> > >>> Thanks for the pointer to that article of 2017. Its introductory parts > >>> are no short of predicting what is happening now with the FCC plan in > >>> the 5850-5895MHz band for WiFi and OCB. > >>> > >>> The paper seems to suggest a WiFi-OCB co-existence solution backed by > >>> cognitive radio concept and simulation. > >>> > >>> Are there implementations of the WiFi-OCB co-existence in the same > band? > >>> > >>> Is there a demonstrator showing that WiFi with BSS and WiFi in OCB mode > >>> can live together ok in same band? A packet dump would be > illustrative. > >>> > >>> The IPv6-over-OCB draft makes a MUST to use QoS Data headers. Would > >>> IPv6-over-WiFi-with-BSS also be a MUST to use such headers? > >>> > >>> Alex > >>> > >>>> > >>>> BR, > >>>> > >>>> Jérôme > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Jérôme Härri <haerri@eurecom.fr> > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 16:09 To: 'Alexandre Petrescu' > >>>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>; 'Abdussalam Baryun' > >>>> <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Cc: 'its' <its@ietf.org> Subject: RE: > >>>> [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves > >>>> > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> > >>>> We did a study a few months ago related to the coexistence between > >>>> WiFi and OCB on the same channel. Please find it here: > >>>> > >>>> > http://www.eurecom.fr/fr/publication/5395/detail/coexistence-challenges-between-rlans-and-etsi-its-g5-at-5-9ghz-for-future-connected-vehicles > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> John Kenney and his team also make a similar study as well... > >>>> > >>>> The methods have slightly changed since this publication, but > >>>> problems would still occur: which technology should 'vacate' in case > >>>> of interferences? As far as I understood, OCB still is the > >>>> primary..but I leave other expert to correct this statement if I am > >>>> wrong, > >>>> > >>>> BR, > >>>> > >>>> Jérôme > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- From: its <its-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf > >>>> Of Alexandre Petrescu Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2019 15:45 To: > >>>> Abdussalam Baryun <abdussalambaryun@gmail.com> Cc: its > >>>> <its@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop > >>>> Up Vehicle Safety Airwaves > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Le 17/12/2019 à 15:29, Abdussalam Baryun a écrit : > >>>>> I think IEEE defines WLAN as IEEE802.11. so any IEEE802.11xx > >>>>> standard can be called a WLAN standard. http://www.ieee802.org/11/ > >>>> > >>>> Right. > >>>> > >>>> And a channel in the 2.4GHz band (WLAN) can not be linked with a > >>>> channel in the 5.9GHz band (WLAN) because the former is ran with a > >>>> BSS whereas the latter is Outside the Context of a BSS (OCB). As > >>>> such it is impossible to realize the FCC claim to provide cutting > >>>> edge high throughput bandwidth ("the Commission proposes to designate > >>>> the lower 45 megahertz of the band for unlicensed uses like Wi-Fi. > >>>> This 45 megahertz sub-band can be combined with existing unlicensed > >>>> spectrum to provide cutting-edge high-throughput broadband > >>>> applications on channels up to 160 megahertz wide.") > >>>> > >>>> So if FCC wants to run WiFi with a BSS in this 5875-5895MHz band, > >>>> such as to legitimately call it WiFi, and to achieve high throughput, > >>>> then it can only be in mode with a BSS, and it can not be in mode > >>>> without a BSS (OCB). > >>>> > >>>>> also IEEE defines WMAN as IEEE802.16 technology, which was replaced > >>>>> by LTE cellular technology. > >>>> > >>>> There is indeed a similarity. > >>>> > >>>> But 802.16 is more different than 802.11 than 802.11-OCB is different > >>>> than 802.11. > >>>> > >>>> 802.16 runs in licensed and paid spectrum (one has to acquire i.e. > >>>> pay money to get) whereas 802.11-OCB one does not have to buy > >>>> spectrum. > >>>> > >>>> There are other stronger differences I think. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> AB > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 3:54 PM Alexandre Petrescu > >>>>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com > >>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Le 17/12/2019 à 14:40, Abdussalam Baryun a écrit : > >>>>>> V2X and V2V communications had two design proposals: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> 1- using WLAN technology 2- using Cellular network technology > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So we worked on the first in this WG. > >>>>> > >>>>> OCB is not the typical WLAN - it is 802.11 in mode OCB. One cant > >>>>> link OCB channels to non-OCB channels (typical WiFi) such as to > >>>>> make very large channel widhts they seem to need. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> in frequency yes > >>>> > >>>> In practice: how do you think it is possible to link together two > >>>> channels one from 5.4GHZ WiFi and one from 5.9GHz OCB? > >>>> > >>>> I think for my part of the 'iw' command. That allows to link > >>>> together two channels, by specifying the channel width: 10MHz, 20MHz, > >>>> etc. But they must be adjacent in the first places. > >>>> > >>>> And one cant do that linking to create a channel that is in part OCB > >>>> and in part non-OCB. Light can be wave and particle but channel cant > >>>> be both OCB and with BSS. > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I think FCC wants much parts of the 5.9GHz for WLAN (not OCB) and > >>>>> other parts for C-V2X. > >>>>> > >>>>> FCC is pushing for 5G services/qualities to be achieved. > >>>> > >>>> It is a good goal that I share entirely. But dont invade other > >>>> goals. > >>>> > >>>>> I think it may depend on locations/regions, because some locations > >>>>> may not have good cellular communication signals. > >>>> > >>>> FCC does not talk about locations or regions. > >>>> > >>>> But I do agree with you on the principle. I talked recently to a > >>>> highway operator complaining about the lack of 3G 4G feasibility on > >>>> their roads. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the FCC question is whether or not to keep the > >>>>> 5895-5905MHz for DSRC or to give that too to C-V2X; that is the > >>>>> only question they formulate. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree, they are pushing for that, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> That channel is a place where FCC hardly allowed for IPv6 in the > >>>>> first place. Even in this WG it was often said that IPv6 is not > >>>>> for that channel. > >>>>> > >>>>> I think there is no place for OCB mode anywhere and even less for > >>>>> IPv6. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> we never know what will happen tomorrow. > >>>> > >>>> BUt we cant work without a solid basis. > >>>> > >>>> Alex > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> AB > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Alex > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Tue, Dec 17, 2019 at 12:58 PM Alexandre Petrescu > >>>>>> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com > >>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> > >>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com > >>>>> <mailto:alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-361339A1.pdf > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> For Immediate Release FCC SEEKS TO PROMOTE INNOVATION IN > >>>>> THE 5.9 GHZ > >>>>>>> BAND WASHINGTON, December 12, 2019—The Federal Communications > >>>>>>> Commission today voted[...] > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What does C in C-V2X mean? Is it Cellular V2X like in 3GPP? > >>>>> I assume > >>>>>> this is what is meant by C-V2X: point-to-point links from 3GPP. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Yes, there are 4G and 5G > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Or is C-V2X something more like BSM messages put on 802.11 > >>>>> kind of link > >>>>>> (be it OCB or more traditional WiFi)? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> no it is cellular network communication technologies/protocols > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What does C-V2X mean entirely? Is it sending BSM messages or > >>>>> is it also > >>>>>> sending CAM messages (in 3GPP there are only CAM messages > >>>>> AFAIremember). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What are the implementations of C-V2X and on which hardware > >>>>> from which > >>>>>> manufacturer? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> see our draft mentions c-v2x: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipwave-vehicular-networking-03# > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>> page-19 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> I think it is important that we do more work for the C-V2X > >>>>> section in > >>>>>> the draft as well. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Detailing this term is key to understand the plan and to be > >>>>> able to > >>>>>> answer the consultation. It might be very worrisome as well > >>>>> as it might > >>>>>> be nothing new but a change in terms. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The C-V2X is challenging with WiFi V2X, it depends on what is > >>>>>> mostly used by countries, but the WiFi is probably will win. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> AB > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ its mailing list > >>>> its@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> its mailing list > >>> its@ietf.org > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> its mailing list > >> its@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > its mailing list > > its@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its > _______________________________________________ > its mailing list > its@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/its >
- [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Vehicl… Russ Housley
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Jérôme Härri
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Jérôme Härri
- Re: [ipwave] FCC Moves Plan Forward to Chop Up Ve… Alexandre Petrescu
- [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan (was: Re: FCC… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan (was: Re:… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan fygsimon@gmail.com
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan Chris Shen
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan, and a no… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan, and a no… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan - related… Alexandre Petrescu
- Re: [ipwave] Commenting on the FCC plan - related… Alexandre Petrescu