Re: [Ntp] Finding leap-seconds.list

As I have said in my starting email to this thread [0], this file is 
hosted in many places to which the IETF is not an authoritive source and 
from my end. I have experienced issues reaching the NIST host, however 
USNO's FTP server [1] appears to work for me.

Furthermore, leap-seconds.list is also packaged inside of FreeBSD itself 
[1] surely it would be more appropriate to reference this file instead 
of having the ntp service attempt to download it from a non-authoritive 
source on the internet, where it can fall under the same vendor software 
updates as all other critical files?

Regards

[0] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ntp/COKDJAEBD5rsy5uOvHyO6QdXvN8

[1] ftp://tycho.usno.navy.mil/pub/ntp/leap-seconds.list

[2] 
https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base/head/contrib/tzdata/leap-seconds.list?view=log

On 08/11/2018 02:56, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 7:49 PM Thomas Peterson 
> <hidinginthebbc@gmail.com <mailto:hidinginthebbc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     I propose the following occurs if the working group agrees:
>
>     * draft-ietf-ntp-bcp is updated to remove reference to the IETF
>     hosted leap second file (as has already been suggested)
>     * The IETF ceases to host unpacked versions of tzdb
>     * Updates sent to various other mailing lists that may be affected
>     by this change (off the top of my head, tz@iana.org
>     <mailto:tz@iana.org>, pool@lists.ntp.org
>     <mailto:pool@lists.ntp.org>, freebsd-ports@lists.freebsd.org
>     <mailto:freebsd-ports@lists.freebsd.org>) as a matter of courtesy
>     before its hosting is removed.
>
>
> So what's the new place to get it if the IEFT stops hosting it? All 
> the 'much better places' don't earlier in the thread do not resolve 
> for me at all (or resolved to web pages that aren't suitable for 
> automatic downloading). The ntp leapsecond file has a format that's 
> been fixed for at least two decades. So what's the real 'next step' 
> for people that download it outside of the TZ stuff?
>
> This is a very disruptive change to the FreeBSD community, at least. 
> It's not clear what it accomplishes.
>
> Warner
>
>
>     Regards
>
>
>     On 08/11/2018 01:28, Dieter Sibold wrote:
>>
>>
>>     On 8 Nov 2018, at 2:17, Denis Reilly wrote:
>>
>>>     Thomas and Martin,
>>>
>>>     On doing my own research into this for the BCP, I found that the
>>>     Time Zone database maintenance procedures are documented in BCP
>>>     175 / RFC 6557.
>>>
>>>     However, after the discussion during the WG meeting, I think
>>>     it's better to remove the mention of the leap second file hosted
>>>     by the IETF in the BCP. As Martin notes, there are better places
>>>     to get it.
>>     I agree with Denis.
>>
>>>
>>>     -- 
>>>     Denis Reilly  |  Technical Lead  | denis.reilly@orolia.com
>>>     <mailto:denis.reilly@orolia.com> (585)321-5837
>>>
>>>     -----Original Message-----
>>>     From: ntp <ntp-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:ntp-bounces@ietf.org>
>>>     On Behalf Of Martin Burnicki
>>>     Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2018 1:00 PM
>>>     To: Thomas Peterson <hidinginthebbc@gmail.com>
>>>     <mailto:hidinginthebbc@gmail.com>; ntp@ietf.org
>>>     <mailto:ntp@ietf.org>
>>>     Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> <mailto:eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
>>>     Subject: Re: [Ntp] Finding leap-seconds.list
>>>
>>>     Thomas Peterson wrote:
>>>>     As was discussed at the working group meeting at IETF 103 [0],
>>>>     I have decided to do some research on the leap-seconds.list
>>>>     file that the IETF appears to be hosting at
>>>>     https://www.ietf.org/timezones/data/leap-seconds.list, but for
>>>>     some participants of this working group appear unclear about.
>>>
>>>     During the IETF NTP WG session I posted a link in the chat which
>>>     points to a PDF I wrote some time ago:
>>>     https://www.meinbergglobal.com/download/burnicki/the_ntp_leap_second_file.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>>     There are several "original" versions of that file published by
>>>     the IERS, NIST, and USNO.
>>>
>>>     One of those original files (usually the version from NIST) is
>>>     used to update the TZDB records, and the original file is also
>>>     included in the TZDB distribution/tar ball, which is then
>>>     unpacked and made available at the IETF web site.
>>>
>>>     The problem here is that first an update of the original leap
>>>     second file appears, and only whenever the next TZDB version is
>>>     released after that the file appears on the IETF web site.
>>>
>>>     So for most users it's better to pick up a file from one of the
>>>     original sites.
>>>
>>>>     Where is this referenced in an RFC or other IETF document?
>>>>     I ran a search of “leap-seconds.list” across the spread of
>>>>     draft and RFC documents. No RFC that I have found makes direct
>>>>     reference. However, the current NTP BCP draft Section 4.6 [1]
>>>>     contains:
>>>>
>>>>     ... SNIP ...
>>>>
>>>>     The IETF maintains a leap second list [[7]] for NTP users who
>>>>     are not
>>>>        receiving leap second information through an automatic source.
>>>>
>>>>        Files are also available from other sources:
>>>>
>>>>     ... SNIP ...
>>>>
>>>>     With [[7]] holding reference to the file hosted at, and a list
>>>>     of links to sources.
>>>>
>>>>     What else is www.ietf.org <http://www.ietf.org> hosting of a
>>>>     similar nature?
>>>>     This file alone is not the only thing hosted under www.ietf.org
>>>>     <http://www.ietf.org>, in fact https://www.ietf.org/timezones/
>>>>     directory listings show that all recent versions of the tzdb
>>>>     (including 2018g the most recent) which suggests a human
>>>>     maintaining the hosting of it, or automated process. Versions
>>>>     only go back to 2016. These files are also available over FTP [2].
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Yes, and since the leap seconds file is part of the TZDB, it
>>>     also becomes available via the IETF web site.
>>>
>>>>     How long have these files been hosted on www.ietf.org
>>>>     <http://www.ietf.org>?
>>>>     Internet archive's Wayback Machine [3] shows it appearing back
>>>>     in 2015.
>>>>
>>>>     Who is using the file?
>>>>     ntpd does depend on it as was discussed at the WG meeting, [4].
>>>>     FreeBSD [5] holds reference to it and users have reported
>>>>     issues when being unable to access it in the past. In addition,
>>>>     at least one library [6] make use of it outside of ntpd,
>>>>     however I don't believe this is heavily used or cause
>>>>     non-developers or system administrators any pain if it went
>>>>     missing.
>>>
>>>     I'm sure the file *is* heavily used, but maybe not directly from
>>>     the IETF web site.
>>>
>>>     It's a good source to become aware of an upcoming leap second,
>>>     and it's a good source to be able to determine the current
>>>     UTC/TAI offset, as e.g. required when using PTP which uses TAI
>>>     timestamps by default.
>>>
>>>     Anyway, I think the file is mostly used by NTP or PTP servers
>>>     since for most applications the information interesting for
>>>     clients can be passed via the individual protocols.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Regards,
>>>
>>>     Martin
>>>     -- 
>>>     Martin Burnicki
>>>
>>>     Senior Software Engineer
>>>
>>>     MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG
>>>     Email: martin.burnicki@meinberg.de
>>>     <mailto:martin.burnicki@meinberg.de>
>>>     Phone: +49 5281 9309-414
>>>     Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/
>>>
>>>     Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany Amtsgericht Hannover
>>>     17HRA 100322 Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter
>>>     Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung
>>>     Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com
>>>     Training: https://www.meinberg.academy
>>>
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