[TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> Thu, 09 October 2025 06:50 UTC
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From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
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Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 08:50:07 +0200
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Subject: [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hybrid ECDHE-MLKEM Key Agreement for TLSv1.3
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Simon Josefsson <simon=40josefsson.org@dmarc.ietf.org> writes: > The discussion below suggests to me that X25519MLKEM768 is the running > code de-facto algorithm that ought to be on the Standards Track and > Recommended=Y and the other variants should be split off to a separate > Informational document with Recommended=N for niche usage. I realized that there is another argument for the above, see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-tls-hybrid-design-16#section-4 Duplication of key shares. Concatenation of public keys in the key_exchange field in the KeyShareEntry struct as described in Section 3.2 can result in sending duplicate key shares. For example, if a client wanted to offer support for two combinations, say "SecP256r1MLKEM768" and "X25519MLKEM768" [ECDHE-MLKEM], it would end up sending two ML-KEM-768 public keys, since the KeyShareEntry for each combination contains its own copy of a ML-KEM-768 key. So this is an argument that X25519MLKEM768 ought to be the preferred, recommended=Y and Standards Track algorithm, and that the other variants should be actively discouraged by moving them to a separate document for niche usage. This situation could also be seen as a bug in the design of draft-ietf-tls-hybrid-design but I suppose it is a bit late to change that. And the implication to have only one preferred hybrid variant for each PQ algorithm isn't unreasonable. Algorithm profileration leads to fragmented parametrized implementations and security issues. So I think the this "bug" could also be seen as a feature, even if that property probably wasn't intended initially. /Simon
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Working Group Last Call for Post-quantum Hy… Joseph Salowey
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Adrian
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bas Westerbaan
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Loganaden Velvindron
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… tirumal reddy
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Thom Wiggers
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… David Benjamin
- [TLS] Re: [External⚠️] Re: Working Group Last Cal… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Martin Thomson
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Andrei Popov
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Filippo Valsorda
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: [External] Re: Working Group Last Call … John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Watson Ladd
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaroslav Rosomakho
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Dennis Jackson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Stephen Farrell
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Birr-Pixton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: [EXT] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group … Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Christopher Patton
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Muhammad Usama Sardar
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Viktor Dukhovni
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Deirdre Connolly
- [TLS] Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Working Group Last Call … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: Re: … Paul Wouters
- [TLS] Re: Appeal Response to Rob Sayre - was Re: … Rob Sayre
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Salz, Rich
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Blumenthal, Uri - 0553 - MITLL
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… D. J. Bernstein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Jan Schaumann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… John Mattsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Peter Gutmann
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Yaakov Stein
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kampanakis, Panos
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Bellebaum, Thomas
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Robert Relyea
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Kris Kwiatkowski
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Eric Rescorla
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Simon Josefsson
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Sophie Schmieg
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Alicja Kario
- [TLS] Re: Working Group Last Call for Post-quantu… Joseph Salowey