Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip
Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net> Mon, 05 October 2020 21:36 UTC
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From: Dave Cridland <dave@cridland.net>
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 22:36:22 +0100
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To: Tom Pusateri <pusateri=40bangj.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix and zulip
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On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 at 21:23, Tom Pusateri <pusateri= 40bangj.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > In my opinion, we should not be switching from XMPP to a new chat service > without first opening a working group to look into what failed and how to > move back to an IETF standards protocol for chat in the future. > > According to Robert above, it’s a client and server availability problem > (not necessarily a protocol problem). Why do vendors not want to support > XMPP? Likely because a walled garden is more profitable for them. Is that > what the IETF should be encouraging? > > XMPP is very widely used - almost every military uses it, and if an online game uses any kind of open standard for chat it is XMPP - including Fortnite, for example. These uses are not generally very visible, and often not on the internet itself at all - but some are federated cases (such as the military's use), and others are very large. Some are smaller, like that of my own employer. Servers are readily available, the majority of XMPP services use open source servers, and there at least 6 actively maintained and well used interopable implementations (for those that want to count them: ejabberd, MongooseIM, Openfire, Tigase, Prosody, and Isode's M-Link - the latter being the only one not to be open source). It wouldn't surprise me if there are more; there certainly have been others. Clients are harder, because "consumer" and "enterprise" markets are the weakest the weakest area of use, and these tend to drive client development - but really this is no different to email, where email clients, and indeed the protocols they use to connect to services, are not interoperable standards. The XMPP world normally uses a bespoke client, but it still speaks XMPP's C2S protocol. This means that productized general client experiences are niche, and generally driven purely by the open source community (which does a pretty good job given the circumstances) - again, this is essentially the same as the email world. But Fortnite, for example, *is* an XMPP client - albeit with some kind of game attached. If having 350 million users counts as failure, it's the kind of failure that I'm happy to aspire to. If XMPP can be considered to have failed, then it's that it has indeed not persuaded the likes of Google, Facebook, and so on into open federation and interoperability. Google did it several IM systems back, but abandoned it. No matter what protocol the IETF chose to replace it with, it seems unlikely that this direction, at least, will reverse - but that is not a technical problem but a business one. Sadly, I believe the email world is headed the same way - witness the mangling of your email address. > If the XMPP protocol is not sufficient (I understand Matrix is quite well > designed), then the IETF should be standardizing something better (even if > that means standardizing Matrix). > > This should be the first step. > > Tom > > ___________________________________________________________ > Tools-discuss mailing list > Tools-discuss@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tools-discuss > > Please report datatracker.ietf.org and mailarchive.ietf.org > bugs at http://tools.ietf.org/tools/ietfdb > or send email to datatracker-project@ietf.org > > Please report tools.ietf.org bugs at > http://tools.ietf.org/tools/issues > or send email to webmaster@tools.ietf.org >
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Adam Roach
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Adam Roach
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Hodgson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Hodgson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Hodgson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Johanna S
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Glen
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Glen
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Kim Alvefur
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Hodgson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Hodgson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Glen
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Jay Daley
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Tom Pusateri
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Jay Daley
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Dave Cridland
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Wild
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Michael Richardson
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Wild
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Matthew Wild
- Re: [Tools-discuss] Trial chat services: matrix a… Ted Lemon