Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List
Brian Dickson <briand@ca.afilias.info> Wed, 11 June 2008 16:32 UTC
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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:32:51 -0400
From: Brian Dickson <briand@ca.afilias.info>
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To: Gervase Markham <gerv@mozilla.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List
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Gervase Markham wrote: > The difference is that the public suffix list is an (attempt at an) > expression of fact, not policy. I think is where you are encountering resistance, even though you may not realize it. What you are doing is *publishing* something, which alleges to be a factual list. Who is on it, who is not on it, and who uses it and how, matter a great deal. If the list is 100% complete and 100% accurate and 100% timely, there are no problems. Any deviation from that situation, regardless of how much and in what manner the deviation occurs, puts the publisher of alleged facts at risk. And relying on authoritative sources to push data to you, is a reverse onus that hundreds of years of case law quite likely present a formidable obstacle, if it becomes necessary to defend your choice. Here's a concrete analogy that may be suitable for demonstrating the issue. Imagine a magazine dedicated to "Tires". It publishes an article on "Tire Safety". It contains a list of "Tires (manufacturer/model) safe to use at 180 km/h". Is the list accurate? Timely? Complete? If a reader bases a safety decision (buys tires, drives 180 km/h) that goes badly, then what? What about recalls? Also: Publishing a list may be even *riskier* than publishing a single, but erroneous, "fact". E.g. what about manufacturers not listed? They have been implicitly or even explicitly defamed, even if you include a footnote to the effect that "this list is not complete". > IFrom dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Wed Jun 11 09:32:37 2008 Return-Path: <dnsop-bounces@ietf.org> X-Original-To: dnsop-archive@optimus.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsop-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4553A67B2; Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:32:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: dnsop@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED8B23A6812 for <dnsop@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:32:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.750, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vMc+4Ag+PY7n for <dnsop@core3.amsl.com>; Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:32:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx4.ca.afilias.info (vgateway.libertyrms.info [207.219.45.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB7603A67AD for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:32:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mx4.ca.afilias.info with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1K6TFt-0006kv-1j; Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:33:01 -0400 Message-ID: <484FFE33.3040604@ca.afilias.info> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:32:51 -0400 From: Brian Dickson <briand@ca.afilias.info> User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.14 (Windows/20080421) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gervase Markham <gerv@mozilla.org> References: <C472CDE5.34D8%kim.davies@icann.org> <484E530E.1040108@mozilla.org> <p06240800c474665e68d2@[10.20.30.249]> <484F968B.4070702@mozilla.org> In-Reply-To: <484F968B.4070702@mozilla.org> X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org> Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/dnsop> List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Gervase Markham wrote: > The difference is that the public suffix list is an (attempt at an) > expression of fact, not policy. I think is where you are encountering resistance, even though you may not realize it. What you are doing is *publishing* something, which alleges to be a factual list. Who is on it, who is not on it, and who uses it and how, matter a great deal. If the list is 100% complete and 100% accurate and 100% timely, there are no problems. Any deviation from that situation, regardless of how much and in what manner the deviation occurs, puts the publisher of alleged facts at risk. And relying on authoritative sources to push data to you, is a reverse onus that hundreds of years of case law quite likely present a formidable obstacle, if it becomes necessary to defend your choice. Here's a concrete analogy that may be suitable for demonstrating the issue. Imagine a magazine dedicated to "Tires". It publishes an article on "Tire Safety". It contains a list of "Tires (manufacturer/model) safe to use at 180 km/h". Is the list accurate? Timely? Complete? If a reader bases a safety decision (buys tires, drives 180 km/h) that goes badly, then what? What about recalls? Also: Publishing a list may be even *riskier* than publishing a single, but erroneous, "fact". E.g. what about manufacturers not listed? They have been implicitly or even explicitly defamed, even if you include a footnote to the effect that "this list is not complete". >f you are concerned that we will > withhold changes or issue known-incorrect lists in order to conduct some > sort of vendetta against a particular TLD, all I can say is "why on > earth would we do that?" > No malice is needed on your part, for publishing a list to cause problems, esp. for you and the publisher (Mozilla). I think you might not have considered that, yet. Conclusion: Regardless of the benign intent of the list, publishing it means needing to keep it timely, accurate, and complete, and that is why the notion of updates based on volunteered data from registries, updated only when software updates are performed, is a particularly bad idea. I happen to think that the idea of maintaining such a list is probably not a bad idea itself. It is the means by which the list is built, and distributed, that are of great concern. Brian _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop If you are concerned that we will > withhold changes or issue known-incorrect lists in order to conduct some > sort of vendetta against a particular TLD, all I can say is "why on > earth would we do that?" > No malice is needed on your part, for publishing a list to cause problems, esp. for you and the publisher (Mozilla). I think you might not have considered that, yet. Conclusion: Regardless of the benign intent of the list, publishing it means needing to keep it timely, accurate, and complete, and that is why the notion of updates based on volunteered data from registries, updated only when software updates are performed, is a particularly bad idea. I happen to think that the idea of maintaining such a list is probably not a bad idea itself. It is the means by which the list is built, and distributed, that are of great concern. Brian _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
- [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Elmar K. Bins
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Peter Koch
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Kim Davies
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Phil Regnauld
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Adrien de Croy
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Dean Anderson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Mark Foster
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Mark Foster
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jelte Jansen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… bmanning
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List SM
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Dean Anderson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Niall O'Reilly
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson