Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN changes ?
Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org> Wed, 09 July 2008 02:54 UTC
Return-Path: <ietf-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: ietf-archive@megatron.ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-ietf-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B83DA3A6780; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:54:21 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E55393A6780 for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:54:20 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.656
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.656 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xfIbqph7ADa for <ietf@core3.amsl.com>; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:54:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (drugs.dv.isc.org [IPv6:2001:470:1f00:820:214:22ff:fed9:fbdc]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D163A65A6 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:54:18 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from drugs.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by drugs.dv.isc.org (8.14.2/8.14.2) with ESMTP id m692sO6Y069899; Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:54:24 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from marka@drugs.dv.isc.org)
Message-Id: <200807090254.m692sO6Y069899@drugs.dv.isc.org>
To: Ted Faber <faber@ISI.EDU>
From: Mark Andrews <Mark_Andrews@isc.org>
Subject: Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN changes ?
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jul 2008 18:42:59 MST." <20080709014259.GJ92049@zod.isi.edu>
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 12:54:24 +1000
Cc: Theodore Tso <tytso@MIT.EDU>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>, ietf@ietf.org
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: ietf-bounces@ietf.org
> > --5me2qT3T17SWzdxI > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Disposition: inline > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > On Wed, Jul 09, 2008 at 10:54:45AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > Let me be precise. The resolver treats those names differently because > > > it was handed a name that did or did not end in a dot - the resolver's > > > syntax for absolute vs. relative pathname. I understand that may > > > conflict with application syntax. Applications that do not support an > > > explicit notation for absolute domain names will not be able to look > > > them up when those names are masked by site-dependent resolution of > > > relative names. Both "hk" and "www.isi.deterlab.net" are relative > > > names and subject to masking. > >=20 > > The (some) resolver handles names differently if it contains a dot. > > The distinction that I have been unclearly stating is between absolute > and relative names. RFC 1034 (i said 1035 earlier, but it's 1034) lays > out a convention for specifying which one you want by appending the dot. > As long as you tell the resolver which one you want, it matters little > if the dot character is at the end or not. > > 1034/1035 compliant resolvers are allowed to do site dependent things to > relative names and not to absolute ones. "hk" is not a legal absolute hostname. The current resolver code handles all legal absolute hostnames (has a dot in the middle). Tools that look in the DNS have to handle *more* than hostnames such tools may need to treat "hk" as absolute in which case "hk." is reasonable. "dig" and "nslookup" are examples of such tools. Telnet is not a example of a tool that need to support "hk." as it is expecting hostnames not arbitary domain names. Web browers are not tools that needs to support "hk.". > > There is a good case to be made that "pet" should *never* > > be looked up as plain "pet" if there is not a match on the > > search list. > >=20 > > There is a good case to be made that "pet.com" should never > > be looked up against the search list. > > I prefer the 1034/1035 view that this sort of decision is up to the > application and the DNS admin and that the DNS simply provides the > ability to do both. You are wanting to extend the definition of a legal absolute hostname. > > > I understand that such maskings are more intuitive with short names like > > > "hk", but that limitation of the application interface applies to any > > > relative domain name. > > > > The only reason to want single labels to be looked up "as > > is" is reverse the clock and support deprecated naming > > schemes. > > I don't "want" anything in this space. I don't care if the root's > unchanged or as wide as .com. There was a clear decision to move from a single label hostnames to multiple label hostnames (RFC 921). You are attempting to reverse that decision. Just because it is technically possible to add A records at the apex of a tld or to add A records to names with underscores in them doesn't change the fact that doing either of these is a bad idea. > If I "want" those labels to work at all it's because their working > reflects a clean DNS design. It (irrationally) warms my heart to see > that they mostly do. I'm not extending my admiration of the design > into an operational recommendation, no matter how much you'd like me to. No, it doesn't represent clean design. Making them work is outside of the design scope. Unqualified names being looked up against search lists was in the design scope. The official names of hosts having multiple labels was in the design scope. Single labels were explictly excluded from being official names in the design scope. Having single label hostnames match against the root is a clear implementation error. > The fact that the existing TLDs could do this would lead to a pretty > boring flat name space - 110 names fit in /etc/hosts or equivalent just > fine. A proliferation of TLDs is your problem, of course. I don't > think that forcing the seekers of vanity TLDs to prepend "www." to their > webserver hostname is going to change anything. After all many browsers > will add that for you. =20 > > If you're worried about a flat namespace, attack the right problem - a > proliferation of TLDs, not this business of the TLD having an A record > at the top. For most uses, www.<yournamehere> is just as flat. And > just as flat as <yournamehere>.com, I might add. > > > There are lots of things we do and don't expect infrastructure > > zone operators to do that differ from end user zones. Most > > of these are not codified. > > If there are only a few TLDs I really fail to see how this one fits > there and if there are a lot of TLDs I don't see how outlawing it helps > you. But YMMV and I'm not running a TLD server, so my opinion matters > little. > > --=20 > Ted Faber > http://www.isi.edu/~faber PGP: http://www.isi.edu/~faber/pubkeys.= > asc > Unexpected attachment on this mail? See http://www.isi.edu/~faber/FAQ.html#= > SIG > > --5me2qT3T17SWzdxI > Content-Type: application/pgp-signature > Content-Disposition: inline > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (FreeBSD) > > iEYEARECAAYFAkh0F6MACgkQaUz3f+Zf+XuzqQCcC69WZYCEJvHjCbVDgo4rB6WE > 2owAnji2UmzqfY2p2kQTFKfXdZ2toe4Q > =hUoe > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --5me2qT3T17SWzdxI-- -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: Mark_Andrews@isc.org _______________________________________________ Ietf mailing list Ietf@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf
- Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN chan… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Abley
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lawrence Conroy
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Baptista
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Philip Guenther
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Tony Finch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Hallam-Baker, Phillip
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Thomas Narten
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … David Conrad
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Philip Guenther
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Thomas Narten
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Steve Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ole Jacobsen
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Paul Hoffman
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Steve Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … SM
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- RE: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bernard Aboba
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Update… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bernard Aboba
- Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2606 … John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bernard Aboba
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… JFC Morfin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Karl Auerbach
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Frank Ellermann
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names Frank Ellermann
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John Levine
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … moore
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Lyman Chapin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Vint Cerf
- Re: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… William Tan
- Re: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Vint Cerf
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Edmon Chung
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… michael.dillon
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… Ted Hardie
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Willie Gillespie
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Karl Auerbach
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Theodore Tso
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Frank Ellermann
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … James Seng
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Dave Crocker
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Abley
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Douglas Otis
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Marshall Eubanks
- Re: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… John C Klensin
- RE: Services and top-level DNS names (was: Re: Up… Cellario Luca
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bob Braden
- Re: Single-letter names Eric Brunner-Williams
- RE: Single-letter names (was: Re: Update of RFC 2… John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Tony Finch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John Levine
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … John C Klensin
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Keith Moore
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Mark Andrews
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Bill Manning
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Joe Touch
- Re: Update of RFC 2606 based on the recent ICANN … Ted Faber