Re: pgp signing in van
Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> Mon, 09 September 2013 14:05 UTC
Return-Path: <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 341CD21F9FBA for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 07:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -106.599
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-106.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([12.22.58.30]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b6nKm9zYV2dv for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 07:05:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from exprod7og127.obsmtp.com (exprod7og127.obsmtp.com [64.18.2.210]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3780121E81DF for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 06:58:36 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from shell-too.nominum.com ([64.89.228.229]) (using TLSv1) by exprod7ob127.postini.com ([64.18.6.12]) with SMTP ID DSNKUi3UDOeYb9bjfHMLK+wdUDnnW8qhLZAC@postini.com; Mon, 09 Sep 2013 06:58:36 PDT
Received: from archivist.nominum.com (archivist.nominum.com [64.89.228.108]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by shell-too.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60741B8145 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 06:58:35 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from webmail.nominum.com (cas-02.win.nominum.com [64.89.228.132]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "mail.nominum.com", Issuer "Go Daddy Secure Certification Authority" (verified OK)) by archivist.nominum.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CFF8A190074 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 06:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ted.Lemon@nominum.com)
Received: from MBX-01.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.133]) by CAS-02.WIN.NOMINUM.COM ([64.89.228.132]) with mapi id 14.02.0318.004; Mon, 9 Sep 2013 06:58:35 -0700
From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: IETF discussion list <ietf@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: pgp signing in van
Thread-Topic: pgp signing in van
Thread-Index: AQHOqpqEB3VH/4NMm0OmqkHjUm9ALJm5aiMAgABaqYD//9WJAIAARlSA///KM4CAAFZ3gIAC1QGAgAAEoYCAAPmWgIAAFPEA
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2013 13:58:34 +0000
Message-ID: <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B63077527C8AB@mbx-01.win.nominum.com>
References: <m2zjrq22wp.wl%randy@psg.com> <2309.1378487864@sandelman.ca> <522A5A45.7020208@isi.edu> <CA2A6416-7168-480A-8CE1-FB1EB6290C77@nominum.com> <522A71A5.6030808@gmail.com> <6DE840CA-2F3D-4AE5-B86A-90B39E07A35F@nominum.com> <CAPv4CP_ySqyEa57jUocVxX6M6DYef=DDdoB+XwmDMt5F9eGn1A@mail.gmail.com> <18992.1378676025@sandelman.ca> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B63077527BC7A@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <13787.1378730617@sandelman.ca>
In-Reply-To: <13787.1378730617@sandelman.ca>
Accept-Language: en-US
Content-Language: en-US
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
x-originating-ip: [192.168.1.10]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-ID: <F3650416F724284B8F05E395962A2B04@nominum.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Sep 2013 14:05:14 -0000
On Sep 9, 2013, at 8:43 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote: >> What's the upside to signing my email? I know why I want everybody I >> know to sign my email, but what's the upside for me if I do it? Until >> there's a clear win, it's not going to happen. > > It's what establishes the reputation of the key that signs your email. > That's why having people show up to an IETF PGP signing party, when those > people haven't been using the key is useless. If we think that IETF > is a meritocracy, then it doesn't matter what your government ID is. > > It matters what you said on the mailing list. On Sep 9, 2013, at 12:28 AM, l.wood@surrey.ac.uk wrote: > There is no upside. > > By signing your mail you lose plausible deniability, remove legal doubt as to what you said... Your checks are in the mail. Seriously, this perfectly illustrates the reason why PGP hasn't seen widespread deployment: it doesn't address a use case that anybody understands or cares about, and it appears to address a use case that people actually would like to avoid. Here is the current use model for PGP: (1) I generate a key and sign all my email with it (2) People reading my email see an obscure indicator somewhere in my email that indicates that it was signed by either an unknown key (nearly always) or a known key (I don't even know what that looks like) (3) ??? (4) WIN! First of all, this does nothing to preserve privacy, so I don't know why we're even talking about it. PGP in principle could be used to encrypt communication, but because we don't really have an agreed-upon trust model, this is a use case that only occurs when people are _highly motivated_ to protect their privacy, and that's not most people, and not most of the time. This stuff matters. Thinking about the use model for the tools we build is _the most important aspect_ of protecting peoples' privacy. If we don't think about these things, we're just producing cool toys that will never see general use. I can actually describe a use model for PGP that accomplishes what Michael wants without accomplishing what Lloyd doesn't want, but let's leave that for another conversation. The point I wanted to make is very simply that if we don't think about use models, we will never get to (4).
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Kitterman
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Kitterman
- Re: pgp signing in van Melinda Shore
- pgp signing in van Randy Bush
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Dave Crocker
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Kitterman
- RE: pgp signing in van l.wood
- Re: pgp signing in van Russ Housley
- Re: pgp signing in van Michael Richardson
- Re: pgp signing in van Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Joe Touch
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Melinda Shore
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Melinda Shore
- Re: pgp signing in van Joe Touch
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Kitterman
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Brim
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Melinda Shore
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Melinda Shore
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Pete Resnick
- Re: pgp signing in van Theodore Ts'o
- Re: pgp signing in van Hector Santos
- Re: pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Hector Santos
- Re: pgp signing in van John C Klensin
- Re: pgp signing in van Michael Richardson
- Re: pgp signing in van Michael Richardson
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: pgp signing in van Hector Santos
- Re: pgp signing in van Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: pgp signing in van Måns Nilsson
- RE: pgp signing in van l.wood
- Re: pgp signing in van Anshuman Pratap Chaudhary
- Re: pgp signing in van Måns Nilsson
- Re: pgp signing in van Brian Trammell
- Re: pgp signing in van Andrew Sullivan
- Re: pgp signing in van Cyrus Daboo
- Re: pgp signing in van Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: pgp signing in van Michael Richardson
- Re: pgp signing in van John Levine
- Re: pgp signing in van David Conrad
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: pgp signing in van Richard Barnes
- Re: pgp signing in van Scott Brim
- Re: [IETF] Re: pgp signing in van Warren Kumari
- What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing in va… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: pgp signing in van Dan York
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Dave Crocker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Steve Crocker
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Dave Crocker
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Hector Santos
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Steve Crocker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… John C Klensin
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Ted Lemon
- Re: pgp signing in van David Morris
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… SM
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Dave Crocker
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van John Levine
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… John R. Levine
- Re: pgp signing in van Arturo Servin
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Scott Kitterman
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: not really pgp signing in van John Levine
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… John Levine
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van John R Levine
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van John R Levine
- Re: What real users think [was: Re: pgp signing i… Fernando Gont
- Re: pgp signing in van Fernando Gont
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Brian Trammell
- Re: pgp signing in van t.p.
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Måns Nilsson
- Re: pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- the evil of html was Re: pgp signing in van t.p.
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: pgp signing in van Paul Wouters
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Martin Thomson
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: not really pgp signing in van John R Levine
- Re: not really pgp signing in van manning bill
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Theodore Ts'o
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Ted Lemon
- Re: not really pgp signing in van Yoav Nir
- was: not really pgp signing in van SM
- Re: was: not really pgp signing in van Phillip Hallam-Baker