Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
"Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com> Sat, 23 January 2021 21:11 UTC
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Subject: Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
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From: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
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Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2021 16:11:51 -0500
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One small aspect of this conversation struck me as needing clarification. there is repeated reference to re-appointing incumbents. In my view, and I think this is also the view the community has expressed, there are significant differences among reappointing incumbents who have served 1 term, 2 terms, and three or more terms. While sometimes frustrating, I do understand and generally support the bias in favor of reappointing incumbents who have done a competent job and only served on term. In contrast, at best it indicates community problems when we are reappointing incumbents who have already served three terms. Yours, Joel On 1/23/2021 1:31 PM, John C Klensin wrote: > > > --On Saturday, January 23, 2021 14:48 +0000 "Salz, Rich" > <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote: > >> >> >> * And - if the problem is that the nomcom selected without >> sufficient weight given to diversity, then considering a >> selection that would have made Rich appointed (that's the >> opposite of disappointed, right?) with the result is a >> reasonable request in response to Rich's stated disappointment. >> >> I assume you're making a joke about "the opposite". But >> to be clear, if Nomcom picked me instead of Carl, the end >> result would have been the same, of course, and I would still >> be disappointed. One mitigating factor is that my >> questionnaire was public and I tried to show how diversity is >> an ongoing moral concern for me and people could bring it up >> if I did not follow through. It's possible that all other >> IETF Chair candidates feel the same, of course, and I'm not >> saying they don't, just that we don't know. >> >> If I were picked, however, I'd be unlikely to say anything >> because I have to work closely with the rest of the slate, and >> starting off by saying "I'm disappointed this is who we >> have" would be stupid, for hopefully obvious reasons. > > Indeed. But that is almost equally true if you expect to > continue to work in the IETF (which I hope and assume you will) > if you posted your preferred slate with the implication that you > think your candidates would be better choices --on a one by one > basis -- than those selected. In addition, I think we are > better off moving forward to improve on things for the future > rather than poking at the details of what might have been. See > below. > >> * Throwing our hands up and saying "it involves people, we >> can't talk about it" is way problematic if we intend to do >> more than wring our hands and cast generic aspersions of >> systemic sexism and racism at the IETF. > > I hope nothing I said sounded to you like your quotation above. > At the risk of casting a different soft of vague aspersions, too > much decision-making over the years (inside and outside the > IETF) has been contaminated by personal resentments and > animosities. Avoiding doing things that might encourage more of > them seems like a reasonable precaution. > >> We can talk about it without commenting on specific people. > > Exactly and that is the core of what I was suggesting. The idea > of opening comments to the next Nomcom now was only intended as > a supplement for those who really did feel a need to comment on > individuals. > >> For example, having a very finely-tuned random number >> generator used to pick volunteers from a self-selected pool >> doesn't change the fact that every picked volunteer will be >> self-selected. Having jobs that most people think require four >> years to be able to do correctly, means that people are >> unlikely to volunteer if they see an incumbent's name on the >> list. > > Right. And having job descriptions that can be satisfied only > by those who either (i) work for large organizations that are > willing to give up most of their time for that period while > supplying salary, travel, and other support or (ii) who has > independent means they are willing and able to dedicate that way > also rather significantly affects who is willing to volunteer... > and the diversity of the volunteers. > > john > >
- NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections NomCom Chair 2020
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Job Snijders
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Loa Andersson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Joel M. Halpern
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Adrian Farrel
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Annou… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael Richardson
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Jay Daley
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Terry Manderson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Spencer Dawkins at IETF