Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Mon, 25 January 2021 22:57 UTC
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Subject: Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
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From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 17:57:34 -0500
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On 1/25/21 4:35 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 04:03:46PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: >> That sentence sounds more than a little bit hostile itself. > I would appreciate knowing why you think so. The words "special" and "bespoke" are part of why - you're taking an essentially arbitrary position in favor of certain tools and against other tools, without any apparent support for your position other than bias, and you claim to be making that argument in favor of diversity. >> With respect to tooling, this should be a relatively easy test. Are >> the "bespoke" tools easier to use than whatever tools we might be >> using otherwise? > > "Easier" is surely a matter of where one stands. The point that I was > making (and the only point I was trying to make) is that, if you want > a more-diverse set of people to join, making the barriers to > engagement as high as the IETF does through tools that are really > foreign to a lot of people will not help with that. Like github or > not (I do not), it is a tool that is familiar to a lot of people, and > the more one adapts workflow to things that are familiar to a lot of > people the more likely one is to attract such people. That's the > network effect in operation, which is of course something that > everyone who works in the IETF is familiar with. Surely you've noticed that there's a lot of pushback against github from people who aren't familiar with it and/or who don't think it's an effective tool? If you bias IETF toward github users you're biasing it against people who prefer other tools or other ways of working. IMO that kind of bias doesn't serve a consensus-making organization that's trying to be open to participation by anyone. I'm also having a little trouble wrapping my head around that argument because of my own experience. For the last 13 years I've worked for dozens of different clients, and each one came with its own constraints. I've had clients that insisted that I use Word and Excel and some other abysmal MS drawing tool that I don't recall at the moment. I've had other clients insisting that I use Jira and Bitbucket which really make work much more difficult than it needs to be. I've had clients insisting that I use Eclipse IDE or some vendor-specific variant of that even when it constantly broke down, lost code, and required reinstallation. I've had one client insisting that I use a Windows box on my desk for a year until I finally got them to let me use Linux, after which my productivity doubled. One of my current nemeses is Slack, which is so much worse than email that it's criminal. Some of these tools are better than others, but all of them are either impediments to getting work done, or they come with baggage that creates impediments to getting work done (like security holes big enough to drive aircraft carriers through). But all of these for me were simply business decisions. I could take the gig and the money that went with it, or not. Most of my work these days is from home, and I absolutely will not run Windows on bare metal on my home network. But for enough money I can set up a VM and run it there. Or I can buy a used X86 box, set up a completely isolated network with its own Internet connection, and run it there. If I'm being paid enough money I can buy licenses for the software I'm required to use, or I can set up separate systems on separate networks so that using whatever web site is hopefully only a minimal threat to my privacy, security, or whatever. It's just business. I try to not burden my clients with it, and I don't lose a lot of sleep over it. (Actually there are two simple questions: (1) Would I be making enough money for long enough to put up with this particular set of BS constraints or not? and (2): Is life too short to be wasting my time beating my head against the particular walls that this client insists on? The older I get, the more the latter question becomes relevant, and the more often the answer is "no".) From my perspective, whether to use IETF's "bespoke" tools involves approximately the same kind of questions. From my 30 years experience in IETF I can state with tremendous confidence that the "bespoke" tools are generally MUCH better than the ones that existed before. (Otherwise they wouldn't have been either developed or adopted.) From my experience with various tools used by several industry clients I can state with a fair amount of confidence that the "bespoke" tools are generally better than what most of the industry is using, but I can't be certain that there's absolutely nothing better out there for every use case. What I can say confidently is that there's no good reason to exclude "bespoke" tools merely because they are "bespoke". (Email, BTW, is not a "bespoke" tool; it's a very mature tool that is informed by 50+ years of experience. It's very widely used in industry. It's also MUCH better than the vast majority of other messaging systems in use today, especially if you look at the full spectrum of uses. It has tremendous portability, accessibility, robustness and a wide variety of use cases. And since email basically consists of protocols that IETF maintains, to the extent that email isn't up to snuff we have a lot of power - and responsibility - to improve it.) *** Maybe there's another factor here, which is the learning curve for a new tool versus the amount of time one expects to participate in IETF. People prefer to use the tools to which they are accustomed. Learning a new tool for some particular purpose takes time, and it's hard to justify that time when one already knows how to use an existing tool for that purpose. Also, once you become an expert in one tool, you'll probably never be expert level in another tool that does more-or-less the same thing. But it's even harder for someone to justify the investment to learn new tools required by a new client, or similarly by IETF, if someone sees that activity as only a temporary diversion (or nuisance?) from what they want to be doing. It used to be that IETF attracted long-term participants; this seems less true today because so much current IETF work is niche work. I'm not saying that this is inherently bad or good; IETF clearly needs both long-term participants and people working on protocols for niche cases. I suspect that the discussions of "bespoke" tools would be more productive if we were talking about specific tools, because each has its own costs and benefits and its own learning curve. If new IETF participants are cursing xml2rfc, I'm probably right there with them. But most of our bespoke tools seem relatively easy to use. Rather than attack "bespoke" tools in general, maybe look at each tool and see if it really fits us well? Beyond that, IMO we need to maximize the extent to which people can use their preferred tools without requiring others to do so. And that means defining our interfaces around standards *** BTW, I don't think the biggest barriers to participation in IETF are the bespoke tools, though I can understand the reluctance of newcomers to use some of them. I don't even think the biggest barriers are dealing with different peoples' personalities and different ideas of "professionalism", partly because tolerance of different cultures and different points of view is essential for IETF's work anyway. The biggest barriers to me appear to be excessive bureaucracy (it's really hard to keep track of which group, committee, organization or supporting organization does what), and (related to this) the abysmally poor organization of information of IETF's web site and other sources of information (e.g. RFCs, IESG statements, etc.) about how IETF works. Keith
- NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections NomCom Chair 2020
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Job Snijders
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Loa Andersson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Joel M. Halpern
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Adrian Farrel
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Annou… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael Richardson
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Jay Daley
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Terry Manderson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Spencer Dawkins at IETF