Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> Mon, 25 January 2021 23:15 UTC
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Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2021 15:15:13 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections
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Hi Keith, One point of clarification... On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 05:57:34PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: > On 1/25/21 4:35 PM, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 25, 2021 at 04:03:46PM -0500, Keith Moore wrote: > >> That sentence sounds more than a little bit hostile itself. > > I would appreciate knowing why you think so. > > The words "special" and "bespoke" are part of why - you're taking an > essentially arbitrary position in favor of certain tools and against > other tools, without any apparent support for your position other than > bias, and you claim to be making that argument in favor of diversity. > > >> With respect to tooling, this should be a relatively easy test. Are > >> the "bespoke" tools easier to use than whatever tools we might be > >> using otherwise? > > > > "Easier" is surely a matter of where one stands. The point that I was > > making (and the only point I was trying to make) is that, if you want > > a more-diverse set of people to join, making the barriers to > > engagement as high as the IETF does through tools that are really > > foreign to a lot of people will not help with that. Like github or > > not (I do not), it is a tool that is familiar to a lot of people, and > > the more one adapts workflow to things that are familiar to a lot of > > people the more likely one is to attract such people. That's the > > network effect in operation, which is of course something that > > everyone who works in the IETF is familiar with. > > Surely you've noticed that there's a lot of pushback against github from > people who aren't familiar with it and/or who don't think it's an > effective tool? If you bias IETF toward github users you're biasing it > against people who prefer other tools or other ways of working. IMO > that kind of bias doesn't serve a consensus-making organization that's > trying to be open to participation by anyone. > > I'm also having a little trouble wrapping my head around that argument > because of my own experience. For the last 13 years I've worked for > dozens of different clients, and each one came with its own > constraints. I've had clients that insisted that I use Word and Excel > and some other abysmal MS drawing tool that I don't recall at the > moment. I've had other clients insisting that I use Jira and Bitbucket > which really make work much more difficult than it needs to be. I've > had clients insisting that I use Eclipse IDE or some vendor-specific > variant of that even when it constantly broke down, lost code, and > required reinstallation. I've had one client insisting that I use a > Windows box on my desk for a year until I finally got them to let me use > Linux, after which my productivity doubled. One of my current nemeses > is Slack, which is so much worse than email that it's criminal. Some > of these tools are better than others, but all of them are either > impediments to getting work done, or they come with baggage that creates > impediments to getting work done (like security holes big enough to > drive aircraft carriers through). Do you intend these assessments of better/worse for getting work done to be scoped solely to you and your usage of them, or as global assertions that should apply to all potential users of those tools? Which, perhaps, gets into your later point (that I trimmed, whoops) about having standard interfaces as much as possible and letting people use their own preferred tools to access them. Thanks, Ben
- NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections NomCom Chair 2020
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Job Snijders
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Behcet Sarikaya
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Loa Andersson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Bron Gondwana
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Michael Richardson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Brian E Carpenter
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Joel M. Halpern
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Adrian Farrel
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Donald Eastlake
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Livingood, Jason
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections John C Klensin
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections STARK, BARBARA H
- Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 Annou… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael Richardson
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Salz, Rich
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Benjamin Kaduk
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Jay Daley
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Michael StJohns
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Keith Moore
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Salz, Rich
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Terry Manderson
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Eliot Lear
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections tom petch
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Maisonneuve, Julien (Nokia - FR/Paris-Saclay)
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Fernando Gont
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Alexey Melnikov
- Re: Diversity of candidates was Re: NomCom 2020 A… S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Keith Moore
- RE: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections S Moonesamy
- Re: NomCom 2020 Announcement of Selections Spencer Dawkins at IETF