Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA
Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com> Fri, 06 September 2013 03:11 UTC
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Date: Thu, 05 Sep 2013 23:11:00 -0400
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Subject: Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November meeting to saving the Internet from the NSA
From: Phillip Hallam-Baker <hallam@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: "ietf@ietf.org Discussion" <ietf@ietf.org>, Dean Willis <dean.willis@softarmor.com>
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On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:36 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm sorry, I don't detect the emergency. > > I'm not saying there's no issue or no work to do, but what's new about > any of this? > > Was PRISM a surprise to anyone who knew that the Five Eyes sigint > organisations have been cooperating since about 1942 and using > intercontinental data links since 1944)? Was Xkeyscore a surprise > to anyone who's been observing the whole Big Data scene? Is any > ISP or router vendor actually unaware of the security issues in > routers? Aren't most of them o/s implementation issues in any case? > Hasn't the IETF been working on BGP4 security for quite a while now? > > I'm very glad we did RFC 1984 and RFC 2804 when we did, but it's > probably more important that we did RFC 3552. We certainly need > to apply it. > > I am against any panic response to the hype. If someone can identify > any specific, new, protocol-based threats in the recent media stories, > that would be worth an I-D and appropriate IETF action. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter As I have suggested to several people, we can turn lemons into lemonade. The NSA has conspicuously failed to keep the state secrets of the US secret. Clapper should be forced to resign or be sacked. The NSA is too big to keep secrets. But they have also failed on the technical mission to develop and deploy technology to protect secrets. They have harassed people trying to deploy strong crypto, myself included. I don't think it is exactly a coincidence I had my car searched three times on a round trip between Geneva and London when I started working on security. Or that the harassment suddenly stopped after I used my family connections to make a complaint. I knew that the CERN hub was compromised when I was at CERN. I have known that the System-X telephone system in the UK is expressly designed to allow any telephone handset in the UK to be turned into a passive room bug. But until the Snowden materials were released I have found it difficult to convince other people of the extent of those capabilities or the risks that they pose. The CIA has finally admitted that they were behind the Operation Ajax coup that replaced democracy in Iran with a convenient dictator. At least until the rabble rouser the US embassy hired to set up the riots that brought the government down toppled the convenient despot in the 1979 revolution. What has not yet come out is that the coup was only possible because the NSA had cracked the Iranian ciphers and that is how the CIA knew which army officers might be sympathetic. So I don't think that the unrestricted ability to read other gentlemen's mail is quite the boon that some imagine. Now I also have known for over twenty years that when some of us were trying to bring the East German government down because the communist system was a disgrace to humanity my own Prime Minister was meeting with Gorbachev begging him to send in the tanks and stop the regime collapsing. There are many things that I know and have known but I don't generally mention because mentioning such things without the ability to prove them tends to make you look like a bloody fool. Thanks to Snowden I can now confirm that HEPNET was tapped at CERN without looking a bloody fool. S/MIME is almost what we need to secure email. What is missing is an effective key discovery scheme. We could add that and add Ben Laurie's Certificate Transparency and have a pretty good start on a PRISM Proof email scheme. What we lack is not the technology, it is demand for deployment. Snowden supplies that demand in two ways. First by revealing the extent of NSA and GCHQ surveillance, second by exposing the fact that the agency is badly, sloppily run and likely riddled with Snowdens from Russia, China and goodness knows where else. At this point the closure of PRISM and BULLRUN and the rest is inevitable. Likely not under this President but the next won't owe the same debts.Clapper has to go and so has Alexander. Heads have to roll when there is a security breach caused by such abject incompetence and a failure of the NSA mission to protect US government secrets, especially their own. What we can achieve instead is to secure the Internet. I don't care what bogeyman is that motivates people to do what is necessary provided that they do it. We have to lock down the nuclear power stations that have control systems based on MODBUS and no authentication controls whatsoever. We have to lock down electricity, water, gas. The mission here is to make our countries safe. Making our countries unsafe to protect the ability of idiots to play wargames is notthe act of a patriot, it is the act of a traitor. -- Website: http://hallambaker.com/
- Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate November me… Dean Willis
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Martin Millnert
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Lucy Lynch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… cb.list6
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Melinda Shore
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Randy Bush
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Melinda Shore
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Adam Novak
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… t.p.
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Vinayak Hegde
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stewart Bryant
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stephen Farrell
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Alan Johnston
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Martin Sustrik
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Bjoern Hoehrmann
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tony Finch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Theodore Ts'o
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stefan Winter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Joe Abley
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Brian Trammell
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Pete Resnick
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tony Finch
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Arturo Servin
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Noel Chiappa
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Michael Richardson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Adam Novak
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Spencer Dawkins
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dean Willis
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… George, Wes
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dean Willis
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Keith Moore
- Teachable moment Brian E Carpenter
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Måns Nilsson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… David Conrad
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tim Bray
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… David Morris
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Scott Brim
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… SM
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Dave Crocker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Jorge Amodio
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Patrik Fältström
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… ned+ietf
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ted Lemon
- Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Jorge Amodio
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Scott Kitterman
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy joel jaeggli
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Janet P Gunn
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… l.wood
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… John C Klensin
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy SM
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy joel jaeggli
- RE: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… l.wood
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Ross Finlayson
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Eliot Lear
- Re: Teachable moment Jari Arkko
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Erik Nordmark
- Re: Equably when it comes to privacy Abdussalam Baryun
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Tobias Gondrom
- Re: Bruce Schneier's Proposal to dedicate Novembe… Phillip Hallam-Baker