Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-appendlimit-extension-06
Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com> Fri, 11 December 2015 10:39 UTC
Return-Path: <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
X-Original-To: imapext@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: imapext@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 358BD1A87AD; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:39:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.011
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZN95ZOCBJpgw; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:39:03 -0800 (PST)
Received: from waldorf.isode.com (waldorf.isode.com [62.232.206.188]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D1FA1A87A7; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:39:03 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1449830342; d=isode.com; s=selector; i=@isode.com; bh=+8Ml+yn/3sPsK2QwCtKi6KEvCSMtbCkqXZvfQ4yOFMg=; h=From:Sender:Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version: In-Reply-To:References:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description; b=SUG0QIGjvIg8VGacWitS0Cb/xEQdjWGudX+tIs1Mlo94wg2wFXYPhxJaMPgAogNM49JBl0 MHBbfDk5Iq2m9U5pm9xU5Ra79ME6HEYUqNAi7bRHyKwX68kgZFzSl8dGlZwuIT3k56RPms nSCljuRsFtwprxDe6WC33YCUaJSn4RQ=;
Received: from [172.20.1.215] (dhcp-215.isode.net [172.20.1.215]) by waldorf.isode.com (submission channel) via TCP with ESMTPSA id <VmqnxQBSXLQg@waldorf.isode.com>; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:39:02 +0000
From: Alexey Melnikov <alexey.melnikov@isode.com>
To: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>, Narendra Bisht <ns.bisht@sta.samsung.com>, Adrien de Croy <adrien@qbik.com>
References: <CALaySJLE_6+vbeB-SeMk1VHDAtq2VvS9yKe9dhQ2LTzr4y=oTg@mail.gmail.com> <DEA84B8F15992B4EA87D5CF3D0EC5F98AE4FCFD8@DRTW-EXMB04.telecom.sna.samsung.com> <CALaySJK=5nkmF2K0Vt7mgg2honoX9iYS4yhgu+giDjKyDoR0GQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <566AA7AA.3060200@isode.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:38:34 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.2.0
In-Reply-To: <CALaySJK=5nkmF2K0Vt7mgg2honoX9iYS4yhgu+giDjKyDoR0GQ@mail.gmail.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/imapext/18vZB4yt6UPjayoxUnmuKbs8CxE>
Cc: "draft-ietf-imapapnd-appendlimit-extension@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-imapapnd-appendlimit-extension@ietf.org>, "imapext@ietf.org" <imapext@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-appendlimit-extension-06
X-BeenThere: imapext@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Discussion of IMAP extensions <imapext.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/imapext>, <mailto:imapext-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/imapext/>
List-Post: <mailto:imapext@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:imapext-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/imapext>, <mailto:imapext-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:39:15 -0000
Hi Barry, On 10/12/2015 19:10, Barry Leiba wrote: > Hi, Narendra, and thanks for the responses. I'm eliminating all the > things we're in agreement on, so we can discuss the others a bit. [snip] > On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Adrien de Croy<adrien@qbik.com> wrote: >> The proposal that a client MUST avoid LITERAL+/NSLs presumes there is a >> limit when in fact there may actually not be one. Of course there is always >> a finite limit, but there may be no policy limit. In fact we don't plan to >> implement the limit as we've never had a request for it and don't see a need >> to deny authenticated users from appending a mail (and see some dangers in >> that). >> >> I think MAY works in that it proposes a strategy, and doesn't confuse issues >> with servers that already implement LITERAL+ but not a limit. Otherwise you >> may be placing a new requirement on old software to police the new MUST, or >> implementing the limit places addition requirements to alter behaviour of >> LITERAL+ support to enforce this which IMO over-complicates it. > But the point of the use of LITERAL+ with APPEND isn't just about this > spec and overall limits -- it's about whether we should use LITERAL+ > with APPEND *at all*. There are other reasons that any particular > APPEND might fail, and one point of using literals (and *never* > allowing quoted strings, for example) is exactly to give the server a > chance to say "NO" to the APPEND *before* the message data is shipped > over. Using LITERAL+ for APPEND data violates that. > > It was always the intent of LITERAL+ that it be used as a way to > eliminate the extra round trip on short strings, where the OK from the > server isn't necessary -- such as for username and password at login, > or for mailbox names in various places (including the mailbox name in > an APPEND command. > > My point here is that we now have an opportunity to stress this: that > it's not a generally good idea to use LITERAL+ for the message data in > an APPEND command, because it doesn't give the server the opportunity > to say, "OK, yes, go ahead and send me the message." No strong preference, but would it be better to stress that in the 2088bis draft? > I'm absolutely willing to accept that "MUST NOT" use LITERAL+ for that > is too strong. But I'm still going to hold out for "SHOULD NOT", and > would like to continue the discussion of why you disapprove. [snip] >> "STATUS APPENDLIMIT is considered to be fast" >> >> What does that mean? >> Is this meant to be advice to the server, to make sure that it *is* fast? If so, then >> say it more that way. If not, then please tell me what it's supposed to mean. >> >> [Naren] It's not an advice to the server, we are trying to convey that this approach >> is considered to be faster than evaluating the remaining quota for a mailbox. > "Is considered to be" is not useful specification language. If you > want this to affect what clients or servers do, you should word this > in terms that more specifically tell them what you want them to do. > Please come up with a better way to say what you really mean here. > > Let me take a stab, and you can see if this has the right sense (edit > as appropriate, of course): > > OLD > STATUS APPENDLIMIT is considered to be fast and there is no need to > evaluate remaining quotas (if any) when returning APPENDLIMIT values. > APPEND can still fail due to ACL and quota related issues, even if the > message being appended is smaller than the APPENDLIMIT. > > NEW > Computing the APPENDLIMIT should be fast, and need not take ACLs, > quotas, and other such information into account. The APPENDLIMIT > specifies one part of the policy, but an APPEND command can still fail > due to issues related to ACLs and quotas issues, even if the message > being appended is smaller than the APPENDLIMIT. > > END I like this. > Also, why is this in Section 4, rather than in, say, a Section 3.3? > It has nothing to do with the APPEND response, which is the subject of > Section 4.
- [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-append… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- [imapext] Referencing RFC 2088 (was: AD review of… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] Referencing RFC 2088 Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] Referencing RFC 2088 (was: AD revie… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Narendra Bisht
- Re: [imapext] Referencing RFC 2088 S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] Referencing RFC 2088 (was: AD revie… Naren
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Naren
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Naren
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Stu Brandt
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Stu Brandt
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Dave Cridland
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Dave Cridland
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Arnt Gulbrandsen
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Bron Gondwana
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Narendra Bisht
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… Stu Brandt
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… S Moonesamy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Adrien de Croy
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… Dave Cridland
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review draft-ietf-imapapnd-appen… Alexey Melnikov
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Jayantheesh S B
- Re: [imapext] AD review of draft-ietf-imapapnd-ap… Barry Leiba