Re: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID - draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01

Correction:  s/addresses/SPID  if that intent was not clear.

Mike

On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Michael Hammer <mphmmr@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hadriel,
>
> Right, and no one would ever need more than 4 billion IP addresses.
> The first issue is possible run on addresses.
> The second, is Never underestimate what a regulator might require an SP to
> do in the future.
> My thought is to design the convention in advance that is so reasonable it
> pre-empts those black swans.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Hadriel Kaplan <HKaplan@acmepacket.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>  Nothing stops anyone from asking for a SPID and claiming to be one.
>> It's just useless to them in practice.  The iPhone app won't be able to
>> force AT&T nor anyone else to treat them as a service provider, so AT&T will
>> just overwrite whatever SPID value the iPhone app inserts in SIP signaling
>> sent to AT&T, not use it for anything in AT&T databases, etc.
>>
>>  Obviously the iPhone app could use the number space for its own private
>> uses, or could use them with others in some federation of its own, but I
>> think even they would recognize a 32-bit number isn't big enough for such
>> purposes, and registering every number through IANA is painful for something
>> like that anyway.
>>
>>  The most likely "unexpected" thing to happen is something like
>> freenum.org, which re-used the ITAD number space for their own ENUM
>> service lookup.  They, or some service like them, could arguably switch to
>> using SPIDs instead… but even then they've only used ~1500 ITAD numbers so
>> far, and arguably they've kept to the basic concept of ITADs/SPIDs whereby
>> each number represents a VoIP provider not a device.
>>
>>  -hadriel
>>
>>
>>  On Sep 29, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Michael Hammer wrote:
>>
>>  Penn,
>>  If economics and regulation conspire to make it valuable to do so, then
>> what stops someone from writing an iPhone app that makes everyone a
>> service provider?
>>  I try to see what unintended consequences may result if not managed in
>> advance.
>>  Mike
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:14 PM, PFAUTZ, PENN L <pp3129@att.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  Mike:****
>>>
>>> E.164 number serving carriers is but one application but even there we
>>> are not talking about limiting to carriers-of-record as defined in RFC5067.
>>> On the other hand I don’t see SPID as the kind of thing every Internet
>>> addressable entity would have (i.e., IPv6 addresses). I don’t even see the
>>> number of SPIDs approaching the order of magnitude number of people on the
>>> planet based on existing use cases.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Penn Pfautz****
>>>
>>> AT&T Access Management****
>>>
>>> +1-732-420-4962****
>>>
>>> *From:* Michael Hammer [mailto:mphmmr@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:56 AM
>>> *To:* PFAUTZ, PENN L
>>> *Cc:* Dean Willis; rai@ietf.org
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -
>>> draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01****
>>>
>>>
>>>    ** **
>>>
>>> Penn,****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> If the basis of the distrution is owners of E.164 numbers, then that
>>> implicitly limits the number of SPs possible (and thus SPIDs needed), since
>>> other arrangements limit who may be delegated those numbers.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> If there is no basis and anyone may apply, then the distribution tail
>>> could extend to the limits of how many entities are addressable on the
>>> Internet, aka the number of IPv6 addresses.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> The question is whether there Should be some threshhold over which the
>>> owner of some addresses would be deemed too small to be a "service
>>> provider"?  (Cut the tail off at some point.)****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> The derivative of that will also determine the likely number of
>>> registrations per year and the load on IANA.****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Mike Hammer****
>>>
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 9:08 AM, PFAUTZ, PENN L <pp3129@att.com> wrote:*
>>> ***
>>>
>>> Dean:
>>> I see the case as being..." more of a long-tailed distribution where a
>>> few SPIDs have
>>> tens-of-millions of entities and it tapers off to the right" if by
>>> entities we mean E.164 numbers or some other form of identifiers.
>>>
>>> That is certainly how it would be the for use cases that the drinks WG,
>>> the GSMA, and the i3 Forum are looking at.
>>>
>>> Penn Pfautz
>>> AT&T Access Management
>>> +1-732-420-4962
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: rai-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:rai-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
>>> Dean Willis
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2011 8:29 PM
>>> To: rai@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [RAI] Global Service Provider ID -
>>> draft-pfautz-service-provider-identifier-urn-01
>>>
>>> On 9/28/11 3:27 PM, Richard Shockey wrote:
>>> > Yea .. 4.3 million "possible" registrations and what is in the registry
>>> 1482
>>> > registrations.
>>> >
>>> > Plus ICANN certainly has the money ..too much money if you ask me.
>>>
>>> Nothing says they can't charge for a registration. So Adam's right; if
>>> business booms, they'll find a way to make an industry out of it. Not
>>> our worry. (But I do want to see the face of somebody at IANA when we
>>> tell them we're planning for 1,000,000 registrations a year).
>>>
>>> However, making sure they don't run out of inventory probably IS our
>>> problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> While I agree that 32 bits is PROBABLY enough for the forseeable future,
>>> if we're going to do something besides ITAD then we might as well go to
>>> 64. But if we're happy with ITAD structurally, there may not be enough
>>> justification to do more.
>>>
>>> At 100 entities per SPID, 32 bits gives us some 430 million entities.
>>> That's rather short of the 20 billion entities we might see in the very
>>> near term. Even at 1000 entities per SPID, we're still a factor of 5
>>> short in the near term.
>>>
>>> So what sort of entities-per-SPID ratio are we willing to assume?
>>> Remember that some entities may have more than one number (I have, at
>>> last count, 23, including the four companies I currently control).
>>>
>>> Is it more of a long-tailed distribution where a few SPIDs have
>>> tens-of-millions of entities and it tapers off to the right?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dean
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>  ** **
>>>
>>
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