Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus call for RFC5889 modifications )
Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> Thu, 05 August 2010 09:21 UTC
Return-Path: <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: autoconf@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: autoconf@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FF253A6AEE for <autoconf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 02:21:10 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.163
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.163 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.086, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aqEBiDUv0LMK for <autoconf@core3.amsl.com>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 02:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F9B93A6ADF for <autoconf@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 02:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.14.2/8.14.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.0) with ESMTP id o759LcLx005503 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT) for <autoconf@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:21:38 +0200
Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id o759Lb5d025981 for <autoconf@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:21:37 +0200 (envelope-from alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com)
Received: from [127.0.0.1] ([132.166.133.173]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.13.8/8.13.8/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.1) with ESMTP id o759Lbsg016682 for <autoconf@ietf.org>; Thu, 5 Aug 2010 11:21:37 +0200
Message-ID: <4C5A82A1.9000806@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 11:21:37 +0200
From: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; fr; rv:1.9.2.7) Gecko/20100713 Thunderbird/3.1.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: autoconf@ietf.org
References: <4C528979.7010006@oracle.com> <201008040756.04650.henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de> <4C596602.1060308@earthlink.net> <201008051039.03011.henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
In-Reply-To: <201008051039.03011.henning.rogge@fkie.fraunhofer.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Subject: Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus call for RFC5889 modifications )
X-BeenThere: autoconf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: Ad-Hoc Network Autoconfiguration WG discussion list <autoconf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf>, <mailto:autoconf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/autoconf>
List-Post: <mailto:autoconf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:autoconf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf>, <mailto:autoconf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2010 09:21:10 -0000
Le 05/08/2010 10:38, Henning Rogge a écrit : > On Wed August 4 2010 15:07:14 Charles E. Perkins wrote: >> Hello Henning, >> >> On 8/3/2010 10:55 PM, Henning Rogge wrote: >>> If you run a part of the routing protocol to connect the "host" to the >>> MANET, it's a router in my oppinion (Ripple would call it a leaf node >>> for example). >> >> What if your host gets an address by running >> "autoconf.exe", which is not a routing program? > > Does your host set up a route towards the next router and maintains it if the > topology data from the router changes ? If yes I would say it's a primitive > router too. If no, it's not. To me a router is a device and its software doing this: - has a routing table called such. - does longest-prefix match algorithm to search in it. This operation is not specified (no RFC) but it is there everywhere in every router, thanks BSD. - includes that route.h I believe as CP said. - has multiple interfaces. In a sense every other host (my Windows PC) is a router because it does all these things. My PDA, my cell phone, are all routers. From this perspective, it is difficult to define what a Host is because everything seems to be a router to me - once it's connected to the Internet it is a router. A supercomputer is a router too, though it won't route as a DFZ 192-processor router would route. Alex > >>> If the node just use DHCP or similar protocols to get it's address >>> without being modified to work with the MANET, it's no router (and don't >>> need the autoconf address model). >> >> What if the host does not? Or, do you mean to say >> that this discussion is a way to legislate that all >> hosts must use DHCP? > > I don't think I ever said this. I just presented an example that the address > model is not necessary for running a node in a MANET that use the autoconf > address model. > > Yes, you CAN use it... but you don't need to. > >>> The autoconf model is NOT the only way for a host to get an address for >>> connection to a MANET. >> >> The autoconf model for getting addresses doesn't exist. >> I sure hope it isn't the only way to get an address. >> >> But suppose at some point there is an autoconf.exe. >> It should be a way for a host to get an address. >> Its connection to the MANET would, presumably allow >> it to use this address. Or, do you mean to say that >> "address allocation" == "connection"? > I don't see any reason why an autoconfiguration protocol developed by this > group would only run on interfaces of routers. > >>> If you have a router with a policy that limits the routers functionality >>> (in terms of the routing protocol), you could just write a >>> compact/optimized version of the needed software part for it. >> >> main() >> { >> system ("get_address"); >> if (routing) fail(); /* My compact routing code */ >> } >> >> Am I a router? > I don't see any routing code of a routing protocol. But I don't see your > problem too. > >>>>> It should be done on the routers (but MANETs can and have been run >>>>> with different address models), and it could be used for hosts closely >>>>> attached to a MANET, but it's not necessary to do so. >>>> >>>> What is "it"? >>> >>> The autoconf address model should be used on routers (but you could use a >>> different one) and it (the address model) could be used on hosts attached >>> to a MANET, but it's not necessary to use the autoconf address model on >>> hosts. >> >> It's necessary for hosts to adhere to the >> considerations detailed in the address model >> document. I'm not sure if this is the same >> as "using" it. > It might be necessary, depending on what software the host is running. > >>>>> But in my opinion it is still better it's still better to restrict the >>>>> title as suggested in the WG meeting consensus that to make it too >>>>> generic. >>>> >>>> I can't imagine any non-political reason whatsoever for this. >>> >>> If we do otherwise we could have the same problems. People would say "you >>> demand that any computer attached to your MANET use the autoconf address >>> model. But we have to use DHCP, so your address model is wrong." >> >> This is a political argument not based on the needs >> of the addressability, connectivity, or goals of >> making an ad hoc network. Insofar as you may be >> nonetheless correct, I begin to believe that I have >> zero insight into the technical goals of the discussion. >> >>> (I don't say they are right, but we will get people with strange comments >>> on the address model with both titles) >> >> Please tell me if my comments are "strange". > I think the problem you stated is that people can say "the title says it's > only for routers, so it is not enough for my usecase and I need something > different". > > If we not change the title we might get "the title says it's for all nodes, > but I cannot force my users to install a special interface configuration on > their smartphones, so I need something different." > > There are nodes in MANET that are a grey area between host and router. Because > of this we cannot make a clear statement on what nodes the autoconf address > model should be used. > > Most of the WG seems to think it's better to restrict the scope a little bit > more and let people use it for other things than the defined scope if they > think it's right (at least that's how I understand the consensus of the > group). > > Henning Rogge > > > > _______________________________________________ > Autoconf mailing list > Autoconf@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/autoconf
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments to a … Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ulrich Herberg
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Stan Ratliff
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Zach Shelby
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Zach Shelby
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Emmanuel Baccelli
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Emmanuel Baccelli
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ulrich Herberg
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ulrich Herberg
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Ulrich Herberg
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 (Was: Call for comments t… Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 Erik Nordmark
- [Autoconf] Forgot one [Was: RFC 5889 Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] RFC 5889 Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Autoconf] Forgot one [Was: RFC 5889 Erik Nordmark
- Re: [Autoconf] Forgot one [Was: RFC 5889 Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Henning Rogge
- [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modifica… Ryuji Wakikawa
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Jari Arkko
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Dearlove, Christopher (UK)
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus… Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Emmanuel Baccelli
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Henning Rogge
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus… Ulrich Herberg
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router (was: WC consensus… Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Rogge Henning
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Alexandru Petrescu
- Re: [Autoconf] what's a router Teco Boot
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Thomas Heide Clausen
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Emmanuel Baccelli
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Charles E. Perkins
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Emmanuel Baccelli
- Re: [Autoconf] WC consensus call for RFC5889 modi… Emmanuel Baccelli