Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming CFA
Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> Sat, 12 August 2017 17:45 UTC
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
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Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2017 13:45:13 -0400
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Subject: Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet-naming CFA
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Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > On Aug 11, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> > wrote: mcr> The example that, in contrast to all other content, is when content mcr> is zero-rated via 3G but not via WIFI. (generalized to any two mcr> uplinks) I don't know the source address selection or source routing mcr> can deal with that problem period. > Two points here. First of all, does the IETF want to support zero-rating on a > technological level? I guess we're somewhat agnostic about it, but I would be > resistant to spending cycles on it unless somebody is really energized about > it. It seems to me that if you have zero-rating, you have a problem. In one of the original homenet architecture usage scenarios we have IPTV being provided over a seperate DSL connection over IPv6, but which did not provide general IPv6 connectivity. This was from Japan, I believe. That's actually an easier situation, since the connection won't work at all if an application uses the wrong source address. I suggested in: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-richardson-homenet-secret-gardens/ which I wrote hurriedly when I understand what MIF was doing (but really it was too late). I feel that a lot of MIF's problem statement was tied up with existing operators apply IPv4 think to IPv6. > That said, I certainly agree with you that MPvD doesn't solve this problem. > The general attitude with MPvD is that when you have multiple provisioning > domains, it's not necessarily the case that you can believe the claims that > one provider or the other makes. If you want to zero-rate, the person who's > going to be paying for it when the zero-rating doesn't happen is going to be > responsible for making sure that it's configured correctly. If the person who > makes the money is responsible for configuring it, they are going to > configure it in a way that serves their interests, not the user's > interests. In the debate in Canada over this (where N=Bell Canada, who owns CTV), two things seem to occur: a) if one is a customer of ISP N, then you use XYZ app on your phone, you get access to content Q. It's free because your relationship with N. If you are N's network, then usage fees that would normally occur are waved. If you are not on N's 3G network, but on WIFI (or some other provider), your credentials get you access, but you might pay via that other path. The MPvD required to happen can happen in the XYZ app, and actually the entire ecosystem is a walled garden. b) as a bonus for having play PQRT, when on ISP's N's network, then your traffic to third party B is free. (Typical example is Spotify) You can use *ANY* app you like to access the content. > What MPvD _does_ do in addressing this problem is that it provides a context > in which special-casing for zero-rating can be effectively configured. > Without MPvD or something like it, it's actually impossible to support > zero-rating, even if you think that's a desirable thing to do. I agree that it may be required. I am suggesting that it's not sufficient on it's own. You can only get situation (a) above, not situation (b). > If we were to support zero-rating, the way I would propose that we do it is > to specify a way that a provider can advertise the availability of > zero-rating for some set of products, and the user can choose to accept or > not accept that advertising in a convenient way, rather than having to > manually configure a whitelist. But don't get me started on the opportunities > for trouble that this idea presents. I agree. It seems like it ought to be a routing protocol at the edge, that the destinations involved should be advertised with longer prefixes, and with some kind of metric that implies the cost. The edge routers that hear this should be skeptical, but should provide the information to the user. (The CAPPORT protocol and API would be useful here!) mcr> It seems to me that we are re-inventing SHIM6, trying in vain to mcr> pretend wenever heard of that. And I still don't understand why it mcr> was killed. > Shim6 attempts to solve a much larger problem, and in a rather heavyweight > and top-down way. I view MPvD as being as being heavier weight, involving changes to more parts of the host stack, with poorer results. -- Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
- [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet-nam… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Markus Stenberg
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ray Bellis
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ray Bellis
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Tim Chown
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- [homenet] use of MPvD in homenet Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] use of MPvD in homenet Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ralf Weber
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
- [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / trust w… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / tru… Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / tru… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / tru… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / tru… STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Gert Doering
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Ted Lemon
- Re: [homenet] tuscles and conflicting goals / tru… Michael Richardson
- Re: [homenet] Status of draft-tldm-simple-homenet… Juliusz Chroboczek