Re: Pinyin
CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com> Mon, 29 September 2008 15:20 UTC
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From: CE Whitehead <cewcathar@hotmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Pinyin
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:03:35 -0400
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Hi, Randy, all! This is not my area of expertise and I am happy enough with Michael Everson's proposal excluding Tongyong Pinyin since this solves the problem of distinguishing to two--this is the most convenient solution I guess (whether or not it is the best grouping of the Pinyins I cannot say). > To be used to indicate transcriptions, typically of Mandarin Chinese, > approved by the Chinese government on February 11, 1958-02-11 and > adopted by the International Organization for Standardization as an > international standard in 1982. Can we also mention here that in 2009 Hanyu Pinyin will also be the standard romanization in use in Taiwan? (See: http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2008/09/18/2003423528 we've been discussing this a bit) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:06:04 -0700 From: "Randy Presuhn" > Hi - > From: "CE Whitehead" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 8:01 AM > Subject: Re: Pinyin ... > I can see that Romanizations of Mandarin Chinese will be the most > important in terms of the numbers of people they reach, but looking > at the characters (sorry for my misuse of the term) in each orthography, > I did not see enough differences (though I am not an expert) to warrant > not including the Pinyin Romanizations of Tibetan and also the Pinyin > Romanization of Mandarin that is called Tongyong (the big trick is > distinguishing Tongyong from Hanyu though--but my guess is most > people who can read one can read the other so is differentiating > these that important?). ... > Wow. I cannot believe that I am reading this on the > mailing > list that agreed to distinguish -tarask and "academic" > Belarusian, > on the mailing list that maintains (correctly) that there are > real > uses cases where the differences between en-US and en-CA > matter. While I might have dismissed earlier claims of > a double- > standard as hyperbole, I'm not so sure now. We agreed to the various applications of the Unified Turkic alphabet; that was the precedent I drew on. The Belarussians asked specifically to distinguish their various orthographies and that was the sole purpose of that subag; of course we do need to distinguish the differences too for [pinyin] and that is being done nicely with the prefixes now that we've dropped Tongyong Pinyin from the bunch. > I *might* be persuaded to support "re-use" of the subtag with multiple > prefixes *iff* each registration request spelled out exactly what > orthography was intended in each case (an actual reference, > not just and arm-waving "using the principles of Hanyu Pinyin"). Michael Everson has described the salient features of Hanyu Pinyin o.k. for me (but not my area of expertise): > Salient features of Pinyin> romanization are the use of > for [t? t?? ? ??> ??? ?] respectively. The subtag zh-Latn-pinyin refers to Hanyu > Pinyin romanization of Mandarin Chinese. The subtag bo-Latn-pinyin > refers to Tibetan Pinyin romanization of Tibetan. I think I briefly tried to compare Tibetan Pinyin to Hanyu Pinyin in a previous posting http://www.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2008-September/008269.html and Randy I think pointed out that Tibetan Pinyin orthography also makes use of additional vowels. Regarding Tongyong Pinyin, as far as I can tell, Tongyong Pinyin (see http://www.wikinfo.org/index.php/Pinyin) and Hanyu Pinyin (see http://ezinearticles.com/?Chinese-Pinyin-or-Hanyu-Pinyin-Overview&id=26780 and http://www.pinyin.info/romanization/hanyu/chinese_alphabet.html) use the same consonants to represent the same sounds (there may be slight differences with q and x but they are similar in both orthographies as far as I can tell again (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongyong_Pinyin on the differences: "The sounds Hanyu Pinyin assigns to the letters q and x, for example, are not idiomatic in the languages of most users of the Roman alphabet. Tongyong Pinyin represents an effort to preserve the strengths of the pinyin system while overcoming some of these difficulties."); I cannot tell from the resources I have how close the vowels are in the two orthographies as this is not my area of expertise. > But I strenuously object to lumping things on the claim that "most > people who can read one can read the other," particularly since > my own experience with Hanyu Pinyin does not support such > a claim in the least. My goof; apparently in Taiwan both are in use however (according to Wikipedia)and in one county both are in use officially: "Taipei County uses Hanyu Pinyin with Tongyong Pinyin given in parentheses" (again see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongyong_Pinyin ) but this is a moot issue now. > At the very least, I though we had gotten > past the idea that there was any reason to lump Tongyong > and Hanyu Pinyin together. O.k. by me if that is what everyone wants at this point. It's more convenient this way and I'm, really not expert enough to argue further one way or another all by myself. > Randy Best, --C. E. Whitehead cewcathar@hotmail.com
- wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRATION … Mark Davis
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Mark Davis
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Doug Ewell
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Frank Ellermann
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Frank Ellermann
- Fwd: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRA… Michael Everson
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Michael Everson
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Mark Davis
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Phillips, Addison
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- 4646bis era (was: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SU… Frank Ellermann
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Frank Ellermann
- Re: 4646bis era (was: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAG… John Cowan
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Doug Ewell
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Randy Presuhn
- Re: 4646bis era Frank Ellermann
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Andrew Cunningham
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Frank Ellermann
- Re: 4646bis era Randy Presuhn
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Andrew Cunningham
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Randy Presuhn
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Randy Presuhn
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Michael Everson
- Re: 4646bis era Michael Everson
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Gerard Meijssen
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Doug Ewell
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Michael Everson
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Randy Presuhn
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Mark Davis
- Re: 4646bis era Frank Ellermann
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Andrew Cunningham
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Andrew Cunningham
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Broome, Karen
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Peter Constable
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… John Cowan
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Peter Constable
- Fwd: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRA… Michael Everson
- RE: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Peter Constable
- Pinyin Michael Everson
- Tongyong Pinyin bites the dust (was: Pinyin) John Cowan
- Re: Tongyong Pinyin bites the dust (was: Pinyin) Doug Ewell
- Re: Tongyong Pinyin bites the dust (was: Pinyin) John Cowan
- Re: Tongyong Pinyin bites the dust (was: Pinyin) Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin: the prefix Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- RE: Pinyin Tracey, Niall
- Re: wadegile and pinyin LANGUAGE SUBTAG REGISTRAT… Michael Everson
- Pinyin Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin David Starner
- RE: Pinyin Phillips, Addison
- RE: Pinyin Phillips, Addison
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- Re: Pinyin David Starner
- RE: Pinyin Phillips, Addison
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin David Starner
- RE: Pinyin Phillips, Addison
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- Re: Pinyin Doug Ewell
- Re: Pinyin Doug Ewell
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- RE: Pinyin Lang Gérard
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- RE: Pinyin Tracey, Niall
- OT: digital identifiers (Was: Pinyin Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: Pinyin: the prefix John Cowan
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- RE: Pinyin: the prefix Phillips, Addison
- Re: Pinyin: the prefix John Cowan
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- RE: Pinyin: the prefix Peter Constable
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- Re: Pinyin: the prefix Randy Presuhn
- RE: Pinyin CE Whitehead
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- RE: Pinyin Phillips, Addison
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- Re: Pinyin John Cowan
- RE: Pinyin Peter Constable
- RE: Pinyin Tracey, Niall
- RE: Pinyin Tracey, Niall
- Re: Pinyin Michael Everson
- RE: Pinyin Mark Crispin
- Re: Pinyin Randy Presuhn
- RE: Pinyin Mark Crispin
- Re: Pinyin CE Whitehead
- Re: Pinyin CE Whitehead
- RE: Pinyin CE Whitehead
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Tongyong Pinyin bites the du… Michael Everson
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Tongyong Pinyin bites the du… Doug Ewell
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Tongyong Pinyin bites the du… Michael Everson
- Re: [Ietf-languages] Tongyong Pinyin bites the du… Doug Ewell