Re: Applying "Note Well" to side meetings

[Colin Perkins <[e-mail]>]

> On 21 Jul 2019, at 10:02, Richard Barnes <[e-mail]> wrote:
> 
> Great, so unless anyone wants to tell Colin that ANRW needs to adopt the Note Well, we've validated that side meetings held alongside IETF can have their own IPR rules.

The IRTF has chosen a particular policy for one of its events. I’m not sure that says anything about the IETF’s policy for side meetings it facilitates.

Colin





> To Warren's "don't be a jerk" point -- this absolutely doesn't mean that people *shouldn't* disclose their IPR, it just means they're not *obligated* to, in the sense of RFC 8179.
> 
> --Richard
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 9:54 AM Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> sorry, I was confused by the meeting at the IETF - I expect I’m not the only one based on the discussion - maybe the first slide needs to say 
> 
>         “THIS IS NOT AN IRTF RG”
> 
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jul 21, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Colin Perkins <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> > 
> > Since the ANRW is an academic conference, we made the decision to follow the usual norms for such events and not require IPR disclosure. 
> > 
> > If the work is brought into an IRTF RG, or an IETF WG, then the usual IRTF and IETF IPR disclosure rules apply.
> > 
> > Colin
> > 
> > 
> >> On 21 Jul 2019, at 09:41, Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >> 
> >> you made an explicit decision that people can hide their IPR?
> >> 
> >> have fun with that
> >> 
> >> Scott
> >> 
> >>> On Jul 21, 2019, at 9:36 AM, Colin Perkins <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> The ANRW is an academic workshop that happens to be co-located with IETF. We made an explicit decision when starting the workshop, several years ago now, that the Note Well does not apply to it. 
> >>> 
> >>> If work is brought from ANRW into either an IRTF RG or an IETF WG, then the Note Well would apply, of course.
> >>> 
> >>> Colin
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>>> On 21 Jul 2019, at 08:08, Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>> ps - I see that ANRW is an IRTF research group - thus https://irtf.org/ipr <https://irtf.org/ipr> applies 
> >>>> (and that says that the IETF rules apply)
> >>>> 
> >>>> Scott
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>>> On Jul 21, 2019, at 8:02 AM, Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but I am speaking as a person who ran the BOF where the specific
> >>>>> text "intended to affect the IETF Standards Process” was developed and agreed to as well as a person who 
> >>>>> edited the specific text - it is my opinion that the BOF (and thus the IETF) intended the rules to apply
> >>>>> wherever actions are taken or text developed that are "intended to affect the IETF Standards Process” 
> >>>>> in particular, IPR disclosure is required if known
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> I have no opinion as to the facts of the specific case of ANRW since I have not been following that
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> Scott
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Jul 21, 2019, at 7:42 AM, Richard Barnes <[e-mail]> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Scott, I think you may be over-stating things a bit.  The IETF doesn't get to make universal statements that apply to things out of its remit.  For example, there are numerous research conferences that are held on IETF-related technologies -- often with a specific focus on providing helpful input to IETF! -- which are not held under note well.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The location of such meetings alongside IETF meetings does not change this fact.  AFAICT, ANRW is not covered by Note Well, despite having the explicit goal of "transition[ing] research back into IETF".
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> The definition of Contribution in 8179 makes this clear from the start:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> """
> >>>>>> "Contribution": any submission to the IETF ...
> >>>>>> """
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2019 at 7:27 AM Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Thanks Scott, that's helpful.
> >>>>>> A
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>> From: Scott O. Bradner <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> 
> >>>>>> Sent: 21 July 2019 11:24
> >>>>>> To: Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>> Cc: IETF Rinse Repeat <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: Applying "Note Well" to side meetings
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> speaking as co-editor of the ruleset
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> see the definition of “Contribution” in RFC 8179
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> basically, the “note well” applies whenever activities that are "intended to 
> >>>>>> affect the IETF Standards Process” may happen
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> Scott
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> On Jul 20, 2019, at 3:18 PM, Adrian Farrel <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Normally [1] when we have a "bar BoF" (also known as a "side meeting") we do
> >>>>>>> not apply the terms of the "Note Well" [2]. We have usually considered bar
> >>>>>>> BoFs to be outside the IETF because the IETF has no control over who meets
> >>>>>>> and drinks.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> However, this time around, the side meetings are somewhat more formal with
> >>>>>>> room bookings and projectors and advertisements and so on.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> So, does the Note Well apply to these side meetings?
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Apologies if I missed an email on this: I sometimes don't focus as much as I
> >>>>>>> should.
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>>> Adrian
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> [1] For some practical definition of "normal"
> >>>>>>> [2] https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/ <https://www.ietf.org/about/note-well/>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Read some fairy stories for adults of all ages
> >>>>>>> .. Tales from the Wood
> >>>>>>> .. More Tales from the Wood
> >>>>>>> .. Tales from Beyond the Wood
> >>>>>>> .. Tales from the Castle
> >>>>>>> Get them on line https://www.feedaread.com/profiles/8604/ <https://www.feedaread.com/profiles/8604/>
> >>>>>>> Or buy a signed copy from me by post
> >>>>>>> *** Stop me in the corridor at IETF-105 to get a copy ***
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> -- 
> >>> Colin Perkins
> >>> https://csperkins.org/ <https://csperkins.org/>
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Colin Perkins
> > https://csperkins.org/ <https://csperkins.org/>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 



-- 
Colin Perkins
https://csperkins.org/