Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions

Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org> Sat, 14 September 2019 12:52 UTC

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From: Barry Leiba <barryleiba@computer.org>
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:52:32 -0400
Message-ID: <CALaySJJBFH0kb8Wujn38kcU14ZJffnu85pDm6jGYZpq1cqJ2eA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Planned experiment: A new mailing list for last-call discussions
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden@gmail.com>, IETF <ietf@ietf.org>
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I don't follow this reasoning, John: it's already the case that many
IETF participants don't subscribe to the IETF discussion list, and
subscribing to it is not in any way a requirement.  Lots of people opt
out and do not think they're opting out of participation in IETF
consensus.  Last-call announcements go to ietf-announce and are
visible to people who subscribe to that, and not to this.  Last-call
discussions are often copied to the working group, as well.

If anything, separating the lists might *increase* the number of
people who explicitly subscribe to last-call discussions (but who
don't want to deal with the high volume on this list).

Barry

On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 2:45 AM John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>; wrote:
>
>
>
> --On Friday, September 13, 2019 13:09 -0700 Eric Rescorla
> <ekr@rtfm.com>; wrote:
>
> >> I am thinking that both lists should have the same
> >> membership, that is, one can't unsubscribe from only one.
> >> This would preserve the broad community review of last calls
> >> and for community discussions, but still allow separate
> >> discussions.
> >>
> >
> > I disagree with this. Part of the value proposition here is to
> > allow people to engage with last calls and avoid the...
> > unpleasantness... which is the ietf@ list.
>
> Ekr,
>
> I almost agree.  There have certainly been weeks lately in which
> I would classify the bulk of the traffic on the main IETF list
> as unpleasant and have wished that much of hadn't reached me.
> However, we claim that the basis of what we do is "IETF
> consensus".  Today, someone who opts out of the IETF list
> essentially opts out of that consensus process no matter how
> active they might be in, e.g., particular WGs.  If we split the
> list and the membership of the two lists diverges, I wonder if
> honesty and transparency require us to adjust our vocabulary to
> indicate, e.g., "consensus of those who chose to participate in
> the IETF's broad final review process".
>
>    best,
>     john
>