[OAUTH-WG] R: [apps-discuss] Web Finger vs. Simple Web Discovery (SWD)

[Goix Laurent Walter <[e-mail]>]

I also would be in favor of keeping both, for the reasons mentioned. Plus xml is traditionally better than json at handling extensions & namespaces that may appear throughout future deployments

walter

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: [e-mail] [mailto:apps-discuss-
> [e-mail]] Per conto di Tim Bray
> Inviato: venerdì 20 aprile 2012 7.33
> A: Paul E. Jones
> Cc: [e-mail]; Apps Discuss
> Oggetto: Re: [apps-discuss] [OAUTH-WG] Web Finger vs. Simple Web
> Discovery (SWD)
>
> Oops, looks like I left off the link to my own remarks about XML&JSON:
> http://goo.gl/v7Pjr - but they say the same thing, more or less, that
> MNot did.  Your characterizing me as an enemy of XML is amusing, given
> that my name appears at the top of this document: http://goo.gl/lBjkl
>
> The points 1 & 2 you're reacting to are from someone else.  But we
> agree that the choice of formats isn't crucial. Where we disagree is
> that we should pick just one, not multiple ones.  -T
>
> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Paul E. Jones <[e-mail]>
> wrote:
> > Tim,
> >
> > I do not agree that it's harmful. If I removed the WF discussion off
> the
> > table, I'm still having a hard time buying into everything you said
> in the
> > blog post.
> >
> > I implement various web services, largely for my own use.  Usually, I
> > implement all of them in XML, JSON, plain text (attribute/value
> pairs), AND
> > JavaScript (for JSONP).  For simple services, it's not hard.  I do it
> > because I sometimes have different wants/desires on the client side.
>  (For
> > more complex ones, I use XML.)
> >
> > For your point (1):
> > For WebFinger, the format is simple.  The XRD and JRD definitions
> exist and
> > are clearly defined.  I think the definitions of each are natural.
>  It's not
> > hard to produce both.
> >
> > For your point (2):
> > That's a bias you have against XML, no two ways about it.  I tend to
> prefer
> > to run XML through a sax-style parser and pull out what I want.  But,
> doing
> > data binding is reasonable if one is dealing with complex data
> structures.
> > WebFinger is not so complex that it would need to be done that way,
> but so
> > what if developers did?  It's their code.  A lot of web services have
> been
> > written that way, so let developers choose.
> >
> > You conclude with "use JSON".  By that logic, we should send the
> HTML5 team
> > back to the drawing board and have then re-write it in JSON.  Oh,
> HTML is a
> > document format.  Complex JSON isn't?  I'd argue it is whatever you
> want to
> > put in it.
> >
> > In any case, I'm not going to object if the consensus of the group is
> to
> > abandon XML entirely.  I personally do not care which format(s) we
> use.
> > What bothers me, though, is that we put a stake in the ground a few
> years
> > ago and people were happy until *very* recently.  Now, we want to
> pull it
> > out of the ground and put in a whole new one.
> >
> > Engineering protocols should involve thinking far down the road.  I
> cannot
> > fault anyone for having selected XML at the outset.  I cannot fault
> anyone
> > for wanting to add JSON support now for something this simple to
> implement
> > on the server.  However, what I call dangerous is declaring that JSON
> should
> > be the only format for the web, ignoring the significant investment
> web
> > developers have in XML.  The motivation for JSON?  Because it works
> well
> > with JavaScript, in spite of the fact that nobody would want to do an
> eval
> > on it, so it has to be parsed like any other format?  What about the
> next
> > web language?  Would we invent a new format for that, too?
> >
> > This is like throwing out a widely deploy authentication protocol and
> > re-inventing that wheel, too.  Oh yeah... that would be what was done
> with
> > OpenID Connect ;-)
> >
> > Seriously... is there no sense of maintaining backward compatibility
> and
> > rigidly defining protocols for the long-term?
> >
> > Paul
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Tim Bray [mailto:[e-mail]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2012 11:41 PM
> >> To: Paul E. Jones
> >> Cc: Mike Jones; Murray S. Kucherawy; [e-mail]; Apps Discuss
> >> Subject: Re: [apps-discuss] [OAUTH-WG] Web Finger vs. Simple Web
> Discovery
> >> (SWD)
> >>
> >> No. Supporting two different on-the-wire data formats is actively
> harmful.
> >> Here are two pieces which explain why:
> >>
> >> - mnot, this month:
> >> http://www.mnot.net/blog/2012/04/13/json_or_xml_just_decide
> >> - Me, back in 2009
> >>
> >> Pick one. -T
> >>
> >> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 8:15 PM, Paul E. Jones
> <[e-mail]>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Mike,
> >> >
> >> >> There are two criteria that I would consider to be essential
> >> >> requirements for any resulting general-purpose discovery
> specification:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1.  Being able to always discover per-user information with a
> single
> >> >> GET (minimizing user interface latency for mobile devices, etc.)
> >> >
> >> > WF can do that.  See:
> >> > $ curl -v https://packetizer.com/.well-known/\
> >> >          host-meta.json?resource=acct:[e-mail]
> >> >
> >> >> 2.  JSON should be required and it should be the only format
> required
> >> >> (simplicity and ease of deployment/adoption)
> >> >
> >> > See the above example.  However, I also support XML with my
> server.
> >> > It took me less than 10 minutes to code up both XML and JSON
> >> > representations.  Once the requested format is determined, the
> >> > requested URI is determined, data is pulled from the database,
> spitting
> >> out the desired format is trivial.
> >> >
> >> > Note, and very important note: supporting both XML and JSON would
> only
> >> > be a server-side requirement.  The client is at liberty to use the
> >> > format it prefers.  I would agree that forcing a client to support
> >> > both would be unacceptable, but the server?  Nothing to it.
> >> >
> >> >> SWD already meets those requirements.  If the resulting spec
> meets
> >> >> those requirements, it doesn't matter a lot whether we call it
> >> >> WebFinger or Simple Web Discovery, but I believe that the
> >> >> requirements discussion is probably the most productive one to be
> >> >> having at this point - not the starting point document.
> >> >
> >> > I believe WebFinger meets those requirements.  We could debate
> whether
> >> > XML should be supported, but I'll note (again) that it is there in
> RFC
> >> 6415.
> >> > That document isn't all that old and, frankly, it concerns me that
> we
> >> > would have a strong preference for format A one week and then
> Format B
> >> the next.
> >> > We are where we are and I can see reason for asking for JSON, but
> no
> >> > good reason to say we should not allow XML (on the server side).
> >> >
> >> > Paul
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > apps-discuss mailing list
> >> > [e-mail]
> >> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/apps-discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
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