Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming

bruno.decraene@orange.com Tue, 03 March 2020 17:17 UTC

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From: <bruno.decraene@orange.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, "spring@ietf.org" <spring@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 17:17:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
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> From: Joel M. Halpern [mailto:jmh@joelhalpern.com] 
> Sent: Tuesday, March 3, 2020 5:24 PM
> To: DECRAENE Bruno TGI/OLN; Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> 
> I'm sorry, but "in my gear I want an option to move some work around, so 
> I need a protocol behavior for that" is not usually, in and of itself, 
> enough reason to add an optional feature to a protocol.

I can't speak on 'usually', but it certainly happened before. Cf the "Penultimate Hop Popping" section in RFC3031 (MPLS):

"   However, some hardware switching engines may not be able to pop the
   label stack, so this cannot be universally required."
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3031#section-3.16

Yours,
--Bruno 

> At one point there was an argument that PSP was needed for compliant 
> devices that would not be able to process the packet.  It has been 
> pointed out since that such devices would not comply to 8200 (not 
> because of PSP, but because being able to ignore an exhausted routing 
> header is required in 8200).  Having an optional feature to take care of 
> devices which violate a standard again requires some strong evidence to 
> justify it.
> 
> So no, from where I sit I have not seen a clear explanation of the value 
> for PSP.
> 
> I also do not understand why the authors have resisted the usual 
> solution to this sort of disagreement, namely moving the feature to a 
> separate document.  Given the structure of the network programming 
> draft, and that it is not exhaustive in either flavors or programming 
> behaviors, there is no violence done to the draft by removing this flavor.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel
> 
> On 3/3/2020 10:49 AM, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote:
> > Fernando
> > 
> >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fernando Gont
> >> Sent: Monday, March 2, 2020 9:23 PM
> >> To: Martin Vigoureux; spring@ietf.org
> >> Cc: 6man@ietf.org; 'ietf@ietf.org'org'; draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >> Subject: Re: [spring] WGLC - draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming
> >>
> >> Martin,
> >>
> >> As an Area Director, what are your thoughts regarding Bruno's claim that
> >> this working group (Spring) doesn't have the necessary skills for
> >> evaluating the need of a functionality (PSP) that this wg is including
> >> in draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming?
> >>
> >> Specifically, Bruno has noted (in
> >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/or8086G4iYfee5_Icw4PnhkPLBo/):
> >>
> >> ---- cut here ----
> >> Independently of RFC 8200, the question has been raised with regards to
> >> the benefit of PSP.
> >> My take is that PSP is an optional data plane optimization. Judging its
> >> level of usefulness is very hardware and implementation dependent. It
> >> may range anywhere from "not needed" to "required for my platform"
> >> (deployed if you are network operator, or been sold if you are a
> >> vendor), with possible intermediate points along "n% packet processing
> >> gain", or "required when combined with a specific other feature". I
> >> don't think that the SPRING WG can really evaluate this point (lack of
> >> hardware knowledge, lack of detailed information on the hardwares).
> >> ---- cut here ----
> >>
> >>
> >> Doesn't this sound a bit like a group is shipping something that it
> >> cannot really understand?
> > 
> > 
> > There have been replied and statement from the WG. E.g. From Dan (network operator) & Jingrong (vendor).
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/ErcErN39RIlzkL5SKNVAeEWpnAI/
> > 
> > My comment is that a statement such as "(1) reduce the load of final destination.", while true in general, is difficult to evaluate, e.g. in term of packet processing gain, or NPU processing resource gain.
> > One can say "not on my hardware", but nobody can say "not in your hardware".
> > 
> > And I think that this is along Joel reply (although I would not want to speak for Joel)
> > "Do you have any comments on what appears to be the significant increase
> > in complexity on the device performing PSP?  The question I am trying to
> > get at is about the tradeoff, which needs one to evaluate both sides."
> > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/CMSX7ijacRdG8qHlla61ylJNggo/
> > 
> > 
> > So in the end, what we have is the statement "(1) reduce the load of final destination.".
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > --Bruno
> >   
> >> Thanks,
> >> Fernando
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2/3/20 15:53, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> >>> WG,
> >>>
> >>> as I had indicated in a previous message I am the one evaluating
> >>> consensus for this WG LC.
> >>>
> >>> I have carefully read the discussions on the list. I acknowledge that
> >>> disagreements were expressed regarding what a particular piece of text
> >>> of RFC 8200 says, and on which this document builds to propose an
> >>> optional capability. Since RFC 8200 is not a product of the SPRING WG, I
> >>> have paid specific attention to the messages ([1], [2], and [3]) sent by
> >>> the responsible AD of 6MAN and of RFC8200.
> >>>
> >>> My overall conclusion is that there is support and rough consensus to
> >>> move this document to the next stage.
> >>>
> >>> Bruno will handle the immediate next steps.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Martin
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1]
> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/67ZG76XRezPXilsP3x339rGpcso/
> >>> [2]
> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/plidxjZFBnd4_mEzGsLC76FZmQ0/
> >>> [3]
> >>> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/spring/uBYpxPyyBY6bb86Y2iCh3jSIKBc/
> >>>
> >>> Le 2019-12-05 à 18:15, bruno.decraene@orange.com a écrit :
> >>>> Hello SPRING,
> >>>>
> >>>> This email starts a two weeks Working Group Last Call on
> >>>> draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming [1].
> >>>>
> >>>> Please read this document if you haven't read the most recent version,
> >>>> and send your comments to the SPRING WG list, no later than December 20.
> >>>>
> >>>> You may copy the 6MAN WG for IPv6 related comment, but consider not
> >>>> duplicating emails on the 6MAN mailing list for the comments which are
> >>>> only spring specifics.
> >>>>
> >>>> If you are raising a point which you expect will be specifically
> >>>> debated on the mailing list, consider using a specific email/thread
> >>>> for this point.
> >>>>
> >>>> This may help avoiding that the thread become specific to this point
> >>>> and that other points get forgotten (or that the thread get converted
> >>>> into parallel independent discussions)
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruno
> >>>>
> >>>> [1]
> >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-spring-srv6-network-programming-05
> >>>>
> >>>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>> .
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Fernando Gont
> >> e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com
> >> PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> spring mailing list
> >> spring@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> > 
> > _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
> > 
> > Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> > pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> > a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> > Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
> > 
> > This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;
> > they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> > If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
> > As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified.
> > Thank you.
> >  

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
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a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.

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