Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification for draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation-00.txt

[Mallory Knodel <[e-mail]>]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't necessarily disagree. There is of 
course a whole spectrum of options, including the Ruth Bader Ginsberg 
(too many women is all 9 supreme court justices) and the fact that 50% 
of the population are women.

However the literature supports that hiring panels with at least one 
woman achieve improved gender parity results. I don't know if there is 
literature that supports better outcomes for proportionate gender 
representation on hiring panels. I think the problem with tying the 
figure to proportion is 1) in theory that is what we have done in which 
our volunteers come from a proportionately representative pool (and 
statistically that can result in all men) and 2) imagine utopia and we 
have perfect gender parity in the IETF this proposed change now 
shouldn't artificially limit proportion later.

-Mallory

On 11/21/23 7:23 AM, Rob Wilton (rwilton) wrote:
>
> Hi Mallory,
>
> I like what you are trying to achieve here, but I would suggest that 
> we try and go slightly further.
>
> Taking the IETF 117 survey, Report | Qualtrics Experience Management 
> <https://ietf.co1.qualtrics.com/results/public/aWV0Zi1VUl8zT3laRG9JQWxidUkxZ0otNjRkMjQ1MTVjYTVkZTkwMDA4OGY0Zjk1#/pages/Page_59bc7806-86fc-40ca-905f-33aaed57a8be>, 
> then the report indicates that roughly 16.5% of IETF participants are 
> not men.
>
> If I read your proposal correctly, then you are suggesting that there 
> must be at least one voting member (i.e., 10%) that isn’t the dominant 
> gender, but I would suggest that we aim for at least 2, i.e., 20% of 
> the voting committee should not be the dominant gender.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Rob
>
> *From:*Gendispatch <[e-mail]> *On Behalf Of 
> *Mallory Knodel
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 21, 2023 12:02 PM
> *To:* [e-mail]
> *Subject:* [Gendispatch] New Version Notification for 
> draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation-00.txt
>
> Hi all,
>
> A short draft to consider in the selection of nomcom voting volunteers 
> to ensure minimum gender representation, available here and copied below:
>
> URL: 
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation-00.txt
> Status: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation/
> HTML: 
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation-00.html
> HTMLized: 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation
>
> ===
>
> Operation of the IESG/IAB Nominating and Recall Committees     M. Knodel
> Internet-Draft                       Center for Democracy and Technology
> Intended status: Informational                          20 November 2023
> Expires: 23 May 2024
>          Gender Representation in the IETF Nominating Committees
>                draft-knodel-nomcom-gender-representation-00
> Abstract
>     This document extends the existing limit on nomcom representation by
>     company in order to improve gender diversity by ensuring that not all
>     voting members of the IETF Nominating Committee (nomcom) belong to
>     the same gender.
> About This Document
>     This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
>     The latest revision of this draft can be found at
>     https://mallory.github.io/nomcom-gender-representation/draft-knodel-
>     nomcom-gender-representation.html.  Status information for this
>     document may be found athttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-
>     knodel-nomcom-gender-representation/.
>     Discussion of this document takes place on the Operation of the IESG/
>     IAB Nominating and Recall Committees Working Group mailing list
>     (mailto:[e-mail]  <mailto:[e-mail]>), which is archived at
>     https://lists.elistx.com/archives/ietf-nomcom/.
>     Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at
>     https://github.com/mallory/nomcom-gender-representation.
> Status of This Memo
>     This Internet-Draft is submitted in full conformance with the
>     provisions of BCP 78 and BCP 79.
>     Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering
>     Task Force (IETF).  Note that other groups may also distribute
>     working documents as Internet-Drafts.  The list of current Internet-
>     Drafts is athttps://datatracker.ietf.org/drafts/current/.
>     Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months
>     and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any
>     time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference
>     material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."
>     This Internet-Draft will expire on 23 May 2024.
> Copyright Notice
>     Copyright (c) 2023 IETF Trust and the persons identified as the
>     document authors.  All rights reserved.
>     This document is subject to BCP 78 and the IETF Trust's Legal
>     Provisions Relating to IETF Documents (https://trustee.ietf.org/
>     license-info) in effect on the date of publication of this document.
>     Please review these documents carefully, as they describe your rights
>     and restrictions with respect to this document.  Code Components
>     extracted from this document must include Revised BSD License text as
>     described in Section 4.e of the Trust Legal Provisions and are
>     provided without warranty as described in the Revised BSD License.
> Table of Contents
>     1.  Introduction  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   2
>     2.  Gender Representation in the IETF Nomcom  . . . . . . . . . .   2
>     3.  Suggested Remedy  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>     4.  Security Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>     5.  IANA Considerations . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>     6.  Informative References  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   3
>     Appendix A.  Acknowledgments  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
>     Author's Address  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
> 1.  Introduction
>     The literature supports the claims that lack of gender diversity in
>     hiring teams reinforce under representation of gender minorities in
>     leadership positions and that lack of gender diversity in leadership
>     perpetuates gender discrimination [Vervoe].
> 2.  Gender Representation in the IETF Nomcom
>     The IETF considers influence and weaknesses in nomcom selection in
>     [RFC8713].  Likewise, gender diversity in IETF leadership should be
>     considered a community strengthening exercise insofar as gender
>     diversity has been shown to lead to more productivity, creativity and
>     reinforces a culture of respect and value for all participants.  If
>     we consider the nomcom as a "team", it will itself benefit from
>     having more gender diversity among its voting members.
>     To address gender representation in the IETF nomcom, we need only
>     ensure that all voting members are not of the same gender.  All
>     attempts to ensure gender representation in the nomcom should
>     include: a. increase participation in the community from women and
>     non-binary individuals so that the eligible pool is more gender
>     diverse.  b. encourage eligible women and non-binary members of the
>     community to accept selection to the nomcom.
>     While the IETF does not routinely confirm the gender of volunteers,
>     we have committed to improving gender diversity in the community by
>     way of measuring it and identifying concrete steps to mitigate
>     imbalance.
> 3.  Suggested Remedy
>     The “two-per-organisation limit” can easily be extended to ensure a
>     nomcom consisting of no more than n-1 members from any one gender
>     (where n is the number of available volunteer slots), requiring skips
>     for the nth slot until a gender minority volunteer is chosen.
>     This assumes that for any given pool therein contains at least one
>     gender minority volunteer.
>     This short remedy might update [RFC8713].
> 4.  Security Considerations
>     There are no security considerations for this document.
> 5.  IANA Considerations
>     This document has no IANA actions.
> 6.  Informative References
>     [RFC8713]  Kucherawy, M., Ed., Hinden, R., Ed., and J. Livingood,
>                Ed., "IAB, IESG, IETF Trust, and IETF LLC Selection,
>                Confirmation, and Recall Process: Operation of the IETF
>                Nominating and Recall Committees", BCP 10, RFC 8713,
>                DOI 10.17487/RFC8713, February 2020,
>                <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8713>  <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8713>.
>     [RFC9389]  Duke, M., "Nominating Committee Eligibility", BCP 10,
>                RFC 9389, DOI 10.17487/RFC9389, April 2023,
>                <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9389>  <https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9389>.
>     [Vervoe]   Vervo, "Gender Discrimination in Hiring Practices", 2022,
>                <https://vervoe.com/gender-discrimination-in-hiring-  <https://vervoe.com/gender-discrimination-in-hiring-practices/>
>               practices/> 
> <https://vervoe.com/gender-discrimination-in-hiring-practices/>.
> Appendix A.  Acknowledgments
>     Thanks to Martin Thompson and Suresh Krishnan for informed initial
>     thoughts on bringing this idea to the community.
> Author's Address
>     Mallory Knodel
>     Center for Democracy and Technology
>     Email:[e-mail]

-- 
Mallory Knodel
CTO :: Center for Democracy and Technology
newsletter ::https://internet.exchangepoint.tech