Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard
Job Snijders <job@instituut.net> Fri, 21 April 2017 09:58 UTC
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Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2017 11:58:39 +0200
From: Job Snijders <job@instituut.net>
To: bruno.decraene@orange.com
Cc: John Scudder <jgs@juniper.net>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>, Hares Susan <shares@ndzh.com>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard
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On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:18:24AM +0000, bruno.decraene@orange.com wrote: > > > > So, going forward, any IDR proposal that requires a change to any > > provision system is a no-go? > > It's not about a no-go. It's about understanding and considering the > tradeoffs. Bruno, through this thread I have learned: - Release notes are not read, and it is unreasonable to expect people to read them. - Software will not be tested prior to deployment, not even to see whether it boots. - We cannot expected staggered software deployments, people will upgrade all their BGP speakers at the same time (again, without testing the software). - Any change to a provisioning system is an insurmountable imposition. I'm sure you appreciate how these new insights will affect all future IDR work. I assure you that if such weak rethoric continues to be admitted as valid justifications for lethargy, this will affect IDR's productivty the coming years. If you want to play the game of 'tradeoffs have to be made', I have not seen any appreciation in this thread for the cost on the Internet as a whole resulting from insecure defaults. Robert Raszuk even went as far to argue that we'd be doing the "little guys" (surely that was not meant in a belligerent way) a favor by allowing insecure defaults to persist. I theorize that for instance this outage was the result of a 'fail open' rather then 'fail closed' (as proposed in bgp-reject) implmentation choice. See https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/06/12/level_3_down_after_routing_through_malaysia_like_idiots/ or https://bgpmon.net/massive-route-leak-cause-internet-slowdown/ Outages like these affect everyone, whether they were a directly involved party or indirectly involved. Did you notice this event in your own network? Or perhaps you did notice it because payment terminals in some countries stopped working? The BGP Default-Free Zone is composed of roughly 55,000 autonomous systems operated by as many organisations, who are densily interconnected with each other through milions of EBGP sessions. When DC equipment is connected to Internet, or when a CLI-style makes accidents easy, or when a lack of education results in a common misconfiguration, there should be checks and balances in place to dampen the negative effects on the Internet as a whole. The Internet Engineering Task Force (notice the 'Internet' in IETF) has a responsiblity to promote and define safe and secure default behaviours. Kind regards, Job
- [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-gr… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Keyur Patel
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Keyur Patel
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Dickinson, Ian
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alvaro Retana (aretana)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jay Borkenhagen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… t.petch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… t.petch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Greg Hankins
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alexander Azimov
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Joe Provo
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Joe Provo
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alexander Azimov
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder