Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard
Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com> Thu, 20 April 2017 18:25 UTC
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From: Tony Przygienda <tonysietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:24:24 -0700
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To: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Cc: "Alvaro Retana (aretana)" <aretana@cisco.com>, "idr@ietf.org" <idr@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-grow-bgp-reject-05.txt> (Default EBGP Route Propagation Behavior Without Policies) to Proposed Standard
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Can't miss that food fight ;-) So couple observations: i) as often, when an RFC tries to mandate anything beyond things on the wire & the procedures to treat it, it tries ultimately to mandate implementations and this is seldom wise ii) +1 Enke, +1 Acee. I understand operators here wanting "their default" but large, diversified codebases have to serve (especially with BGP) a wide spectrum of customers with different needs and with that, different defaults make sense. And I remember routers booting up with a question list of "press 1 if you're an evil syndicate, press 2 if you're a bedroom ISP, press 3 if you think this is a toaster" to get the right defaults set ... Having said that, I think this is BCP material at best and if this is a BCP then i) a "backward compatibility a.k.a which end of the stick is sharp" section is very advisable ii) the BCP should describe which customer segment is best served with which default --- tony On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 11:08 AM, Brian Dickson < brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > TL;DR: BCPs don't work; operators vary in experience, diligence, etc; > vendors don't have common defaults; "open", "route-leaks", and "reject" > work differently and are all needed; code changes will have a long tail of > non-upgraded routers for a long time. > > BCPs don't work - see BCP38 for the canonical example. > > If operators were consistent (as in globally, uniform, ubiquitous without > exception) in applying best practices, these proposals would not even > exist. Their mere existence is proof that they are needed. > > "reject" will only help once implemented, on upgraded or newly deployed > routers; ditto for "open"; "route-leaks" requires operator configuration, > but uses a transitive-optional attribute (and thus works alongside > non-upgraded routers). All three are needed, for their respective > attributes (on by default; stop leak origination; limit leak propagation). > > The long tail on upgrades is what makes all three needed. No single one is > sufficient by itself, unless/until every router has been upgraded AND > configured. The three together are an imperfect but scalable and > incrementally deployable set of improvements with real global results. > > Trying to move things in a productive direction. > > My $0.02. > > Brian > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Alvaro Retana (aretana) < > aretana@cisco.com> wrote: > >> Jared: >> >> Hi! >> >> Not everyone in this thread was part of the initial conversations we had, >> so to give a little background: I think (yes, still) that the document (as >> is in -05) should be marked as updating rfc4271 because it starts off >> saying that it “defines the default behavior of a BGP speaker…” and later >> (Section 2) describes specific changes pointing at pieces of rfc4271: >> “…MUST consider any routes advertised by an EBGP peer ineligible for route >> selection (section 9.1.1 [RFC4271])…”. >> >> Again, what gives me heartburn and the reason this document caught my >> attention is that change in the default – and from this thread, I can see >> that is an issue for others. >> >> >> Reading what you wrote below, about other potential options to achieve >> the same result, I agree with you that the bar doesn’t have to be as high >> as changing the default in rfc4271. But the current document doesn’t >> reflect that. >> >> Maybe what we need is to describe the solution in a way that is not so >> rfc4271-specific. Explain what the behavior should be (not how to achieve >> it), and even talk about the operational pain, and what operators should >> consider with the current not-specified behavior (which the document >> doesn’t do much of now). I think that would be a very different document >> with a different set of discussion points, but one that could lead to the >> goal. >> >> During the early thread of this draft (a couple of years ago), several >> people suggested that the status should be a BCP. I can see how a document >> explaining the pains and the considerations for Internet routers could be a >> BCP. >> >> Just trying to move the conversation forward. >> >> Alvaro. >> >> >> >> On 4/20/17, 12:07 PM, "Jared Mauch" <jared@puck.Nether.net> wrote: >> >> To make it clear: I don't want to break someones routers. >> >> I do want to make it harder for someone to leak a table when they >> have a new router. >> >> I don't belive the bar should be high, it can be embedded in >> whatever >> configuration/ZTP/automation/cut+paste template out there. It could come >> in the form of yang over netconf, or a DHCPv6/DHCPv4 option. It could >> come from a TXT record in DNS, or wahtever configuration method the vendor >> invents that is new and unimagined by th WG today. >> >> I don't feel it requires updating 4271 to attain that goal, it's >> clear implementors have seen a path to do this today without having >> a concern with 4271, and I believe that Alvaro is wrong in the presumption >> this document updates 4271. (I'm also willing to be told that I'm too >> rough >> for consensus :-). >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Idr mailing list >> Idr@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Idr mailing list > Idr@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/idr > > -- *We’ve heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce the complete works of Shakespeare; now, thanks to the Internet, we know that is not true.* —Robert Wilensky
- [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-ietf-gr… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Keyur Patel
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Keyur Patel
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeff Tantsura
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… i3D.net - Martijn Schmidt
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Dickinson, Ian
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alvaro Retana (aretana)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Tony Przygienda
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Eric C Rosen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jay Borkenhagen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… t.petch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Nick Hilliard
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… bruno.decraene
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… t.petch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Greg Hankins
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Gert Doering
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jeffrey Haas
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alexander Azimov
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Joe Provo
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Joe Provo
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Christopher Morrow
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Randy Bush
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Job Snijders
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jared Mauch
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Warren Kumari
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Enke Chen
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Jakob Heitz (jheitz)
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… Alexander Azimov
- Re: [Idr] IETF LC for IDR-ish document <draft-iet… John G. Scudder