IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: discussion style and respect

Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> Thu, 11 June 2015 10:19 UTC

Return-Path: <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B9B11B2EAB for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T8Odt-jVqsrb for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wi0-x230.google.com (mail-wi0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0BB61B2EA5 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:06 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by wiwd19 with SMTP id d19so70807755wiw.0 for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=pDZd0FVtpSHkr4vNajcdIx75T8ETTKHFQr/6ZPAYerg=; b=vw8pMb30XI0GU9j4xHPsqAXGRqzjtXqSmQIQlu0mNOHv+VgDBrAxrPDaUfbJm8F8nd Fx8ux11/iHSzR97Cgq1XV5AXD2oxKdgWSOp8z0ESdCtR5e0PruZTbk4eTw5wneHPsLMO 29C6YsaXKsphlQ9NG7NJ20royJ20RTlsaXzhfYe7fMENzvtWnQOsQngSuUHgzvkrlxAR 222QK0wCiSvjsxYZC/0LUafEG2ljXcW75eA7fNps8A6Z2MCOBWRMj0tegcpymtAciKP0 mXCeCQiv9YbULJ+0I4jdcsJWIvsQlXNG/31UrmyINLtya4kkwCuR/GUpGecHVpg/YuHF OL1g==
X-Received: by 10.194.173.40 with SMTP id bh8mr14496258wjc.99.1434017945729; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [172.24.251.11] (dyn32-131.checkpoint.com. [194.29.32.131]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id n6sm925349wic.16.2015.06.11.03.19.04 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\))
Subject: Re: discussion style and respect
From: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <EMEW3|c442a467017f569734279ff339370a45r5AB9P03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|C578FF3D-ABE6-4EB2-9AE6-966288B83963@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 13:19:02 +0300
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-Id: <A86B9859-5B9F-45BD-B4B7-FF3538DF996F@gmail.com>
References: <3BF40BF3-B7EB-4571-BD7B-D394D4F0CB6C@ietf.org> <20150610204037.6837A1ACD25@ietfa.amsl.com> <5578AB4F.3020406@dcrocker.net> <48E1A67CB9CA044EADFEAB87D814BFF632D561D2@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <20150610215800.867D91B2C4A@ietfa.amsl.com> <1798EE63-68EF-491F-A4EB-4B55ED0359EF@gmail.com> <C578FF3D-ABE6-4EB2-9AE6-966288B83963@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <EMEW3|c442a467017f569734279ff339370a45r5AB9P03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|C578FF3D-ABE6-4EB2-9AE6-966288B83963@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098)
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/2XFp_fB17DGql3YEPi019IAdqUo>
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>, "dcrocker@bbiw.net" <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:19:08 -0000

> On Jun 11, 2015, at 1:09 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
>> On 11 Jun 2015, at 06:46, Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 12:58 AM, Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Let me try this again.
>>> 
>>> 1) Is my description of the IETF process reasonably close to reality?  E.g. does the consensus process contribute to "Standardization by Combat”?
>> 
>> Perhaps. But the best tactic for winning this kind of combat in the IETF is not to shout louder than others. The best tactic is to get a small group around you (preferably not all from the same company), insist on your position and refuse to budge. Then wait it out until your opponents grow tired and walk away.
>> 
>> It is up to chairs to prevent this kind of outcome. I mean, we think of tenacity as a good quality but it shouldn’t override all others. One way is to encourage reaching consensus quickly. Long discussions tend to favor the tenacious.
> 
> Perhaps we need more coin tosses.

Or basketball tournaments. These have the advantage of disqualifying anyone who can’t get 4 other people to support their idea.

Yoav

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email