Re: discussion style and respect
hallam@gmail.com Sat, 13 June 2015 22:59 UTC
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Subject: Re: discussion style and respect
From: hallam@gmail.com
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Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 18:59:41 -0400
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References: <20150610204037.6837A1ACD25@ietfa.amsl.com> <5578AB4F.3020406@dcrocker.net> <48E1A67CB9CA044EADFEAB87D814BFF632D561D2@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <20150610215800.867D91B2C4A@ietfa.amsl.com> <CAMm+Lwi5=TfVd26QOx6THXCKsRrgKpi9rHdST5WQZ=Ayzw+sMA@mail.gmail.com> <557A27C5.8030600@gmail.com> <F66440F9-6795-46B6-A4C9-8EFAA4CF79AE@piuha.net> <20150612165256.7E4001ABD3C@ietfa.amsl.com> <557B3C30.602@gmail.com> <132d01d0a580$427d28c0$c7777a40$@tndh.net> <20150613102154.GH23916@verdi> <54BFB0E8D227E8EEF55AF353@JcK-HP8200.jck.com> <557C9116.2080701@gmail.com> <557CA253.5040001@gmail.com> <557CA4C7.4060706@joelhalpern.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/xtaUh5fz-7ks5Yi-mkPnJvjZtXU>
Cc: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>
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You should never spend time discussing whether to accept use cases. Use cases should only be prioritized. Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 13, 2015, at 5:46 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote: > > I find myself in the middle on this. > Spending a lot of time on use case documents, and deciding which use case documents you will adopt (the answer usually being all) is not productive. > But not having agreement on the problem, or conversely having agreement on the solution whatever the problem really is, also produces veyr bad results. > > We have, many times, managed to thread our way in between these various extremes. From what I have seen, that usually works better. (It also helps if there are actually enouhg people willing to do the work.) > > Yours, > Joel > >> On 6/13/15 5:36 PM, Melinda Shore wrote: >>> On 6/13/15 12:22 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> On 14/06/2015 01:19, John C Klensin wrote: >>>> ... However, if a WG is >>>> started with a "solution" and a group of people behind it, there >>>> are some bad effects: >>> Yes, and this is certainly a very real situation. I've personally >>> experienced it in the past, and am currently experiencing it >>> (without belligerence, fortunately). >> >> I'm actually pretty ambivalent about this one. I'd much >> rather see things coming in that are relatively well-baked >> than see proposals that are just problem descriptions. >> It seems to me to be a more productive use of energy to >> negotiate engineering differences than it is go try to >> figure out whether or not a given problem statement reflects >> an actual problem that somebody is really experiencing, or >> if there's the ability to come up with a useful solution. >> Yes, it can be heated and horrible (and I actually left the >> IETF for several years in part because of my experience >> along these lines in one particular working group), but >> I think we're better off figuring out how to deal with >> these situations than we are going with the problem statement/ >> use case/gap analysis model, which is really beginning to >> annoy me as unproductive, slow, and unmoored to much that's >> useful. >> >> Melinda >> >> >
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- Re: discussion style and respect John C Klensin
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- Re: discussion style and respect Doug Royer
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- Re: discussion style and respect Jari Arkko
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- Re: discussion style and respect John C Klensin
- Re: discussion style and respect Michael StJohns
- Re: discussion style and respect Brian E Carpenter
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- RE: discussion style and respect Tony Hain
- Re: discussion style and respect John C Klensin
- Re: discussion style and respect Brian E Carpenter
- Re: discussion style and respect Melinda Shore
- Re: discussion style and respect Joel M. Halpern
- Re: discussion style and respect Phillip Hallam-Baker
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