IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: discussion style and respect

Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> Thu, 11 June 2015 10:09 UTC

Return-Path: <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
X-Original-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: ietf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94F81B2E3B for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:09:49 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: 0.668
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.668 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_20=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NoHehRsBgZGr for <ietf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 133001ACD2A for <ietf@ietf.org>; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 03:09:47 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.ecs.soton.ac.uk [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t5BA9R8k005698; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:31 +0100
X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk t5BA9R8k005698
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=201304; t=1434017372; bh=9xGISc0Z5hydu7/aLPbUKqToWfA=; h=Mime-Version:Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To; b=r7CDvZ3gAUhGO2ntQELoJHJA39bQYk0vwWMe1Pg1YAg58S8xT/LCEh4S4IIh1AsVa wN4STZ1jdr3LI7EpH5tMRK5M0+eIYI6elI1OZdsg+8EeRsc5aE/4YUJJFnGLBB0GUc aFrnnj7Zqr5kzQgAeAb67csDTQ5re/zXK/3RC97s=
Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk ([2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:401]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102:250:56ff:fea0:68da]) envelope-from <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> with ESMTP (valid=N/A) id r5AB9P0953503384U4 ret-id none; Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:31 +0100
Received: from dhcp-205-112.wireless.soton.ac.uk (dhcp-205-112.wireless.soton.ac.uk [152.78.205.112]) (authenticated bits=0) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id t5BA9MnN005435 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:23 +0100
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\))
Subject: Re: discussion style and respect
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
In-Reply-To: <1798EE63-68EF-491F-A4EB-4B55ED0359EF@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 11:09:24 +0100
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Message-ID: <EMEW3|c442a467017f569734279ff339370a45r5AB9P03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|C578FF3D-ABE6-4EB2-9AE6-966288B83963@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
References: <3BF40BF3-B7EB-4571-BD7B-D394D4F0CB6C@ietf.org> <20150610204037.6837A1ACD25@ietfa.amsl.com> <5578AB4F.3020406@dcrocker.net> <48E1A67CB9CA044EADFEAB87D814BFF632D561D2@eusaamb107.ericsson.se> <20150610215800.867D91B2C4A@ietfa.amsl.com> <1798EE63-68EF-491F-A4EB-4B55ED0359EF@gmail.com> <C578FF3D-ABE6-4EB2-9AE6-966288B83963@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098)
X-smtpf-Report: sid=r5AB9P095350338400; tid=r5AB9P0953503384U4; client=relay,forged,no_ptr,ipv6; mail=; rcpt=; nrcpt=4:0; fails=0
X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information
X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: t5BA9R8k005698
X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk
Archived-At: <http://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/IO-KuolpaSKB3Gw0-SUrrWY2URw>
Cc: IETF Discussion Mailing List <ietf@ietf.org>, "dcrocker@bbiw.net" <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
X-BeenThere: ietf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF-Discussion <ietf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/>
List-Post: <mailto:ietf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf>, <mailto:ietf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2015 10:09:49 -0000

> On 11 Jun 2015, at 06:46, Yoav Nir <ynir.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Jun 11, 2015, at 12:58 AM, Michael StJohns <mstjohns@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Let me try this again.
>> 
>> 1) Is my description of the IETF process reasonably close to reality?  E.g. does the consensus process contribute to "Standardization by Combat”?
> 
> Perhaps. But the best tactic for winning this kind of combat in the IETF is not to shout louder than others. The best tactic is to get a small group around you (preferably not all from the same company), insist on your position and refuse to budge. Then wait it out until your opponents grow tired and walk away.
> 
> It is up to chairs to prevent this kind of outcome. I mean, we think of tenacity as a good quality but it shouldn’t override all others. One way is to encourage reaching consensus quickly. Long discussions tend to favor the tenacious.

Perhaps we need more coin tosses.

Tim

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email