Re: discussion style and respect

[Eliot Lear <[e-mail]>]

Alia,

That's a lot of good stuff, and I really appreciate your thoughtful
answer, and especially your rolling up your sleaves and addressing these
sorts of problems.  As I wrote, we all have a responsibility to call out
bad behavior.  Senior members of the community, ADs, IAB members and WG
chairs certainly should set an example in assisting chairs when things
get out of control.  That is- we can't place all the weight on WG chairs.

Eliot

On 6/11/15 9:44 PM, Alia Atlas wrote:
> Hi Eliot,
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 3:50 AM, Eliot Lear <[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Yoav,
>
>     On 6/11/15 7:46 AM, Yoav Nir wrote:
>     >> On Jun 11, 2015, at 12:58 AM, Michael StJohns
>     <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
>     >>
>     >> Let me try this again.
>     >>
>     >> 1) Is my description of the IETF process reasonably close to
>     reality?  E.g. does the consensus process contribute to
>     "Standardization by Combat”?
>     > Perhaps. But the best tactic for winning this kind of combat in
>     the IETF is not to shout louder than others. The best tactic is to
>     get a small group around you (preferably not all from the same
>     company), insist on your position and refuse to budge. Then wait
>     it out until your opponents grow tired and walk away.
>
>     That's exactly what I witnessed.  I am ashamed to say that I did not
>     myself say something more at the time (although I was in a very
>     awkward
>     position to do so).
>
>     >
>     > It is up to chairs to prevent this kind of outcome. I mean, we
>     think of tenacity as a good quality but it shouldn’t override all
>     others. One way is to encourage reaching consensus quickly. Long
>     discussions tend to favor the tenacious.
>
>     It's also up to us as individuals to call out bad behavior, and
>     for all
>     of us to recognize that just because something is said more than once
>     doesn't make it any more true (or false).  And so, my challenge to the
>     leadership: how shall we address this problem?  I'd like to at least
>     know that the problem is recognized.
>
>
> One aspect is to work on improving and discussing how to handle
> consensus issues for the WG Chairs.
> Anyone who hasn't read through RFC 7282 really should.  In the Routing
> area, we've been having 
> periodic Working Group chair training sessions.  You can see the
> presentation and recording for the one
> we did "On Consensus" at:
>  http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/rtg/trac/wiki/WGChairTraining .
> We recently did one about "Civility in the Working Group" also to
> address how to handle bad behavior.
>
> It helps to have thought through scenarios before hand and have some
> plans on how to handle it.
> It can also be useful to discuss issues with those who are not
> involved.  In Routing, we try to have a
> safe place for WG Chairs to do so with periodic WG Chair chats.
>
> Those of us who participate in the IETF consider some values core to
> the culture which enables successful
> and relevant work.  Currently, those values are partially articulated
> in the Tao, but we do not stand up and
> applaud those who are doing good work or illustrating those values.  
> For instance, on the consensus concerns,
> in today's telechat was a webrtc draft that had a very contentious and
> extended effort to pick a mandatory-to-implement
> codec.  As described in the write-up, Adam Roach came up with a
> compromise position
> (http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rtcweb/current/msg13432.html)
> that was able to resolve the conflict.
>
> At the heart of the IETF, we do open, consensus-based engineering
> standards.  To me, that means that we
> have to be effective listeners willing to hear ideas from all
> participants.  To me that means we need to consider
> concerns based upon their technical and operational merit - not on how
> many times or how emphatically they
> are stated.   To me, that means that we develop standards that can be
> usefully deployed and are aware of the
> operational considerations and technical considerations that drive a
> solution.
>
> I would like to see the IETF continue to improve in being a supportive
> community where there are ties of friendship and trust to help bridge
> differences in technical opinion and perspective.   
>
> Regards,
> Alia
>